BEFORE I SAY THIS: I am not saying anything bad about anyones maps or ideas...
I think the problem with the feel of maps on SC2 is we as mappers are trying to make things more complex, Maybe Sc2 just needs simplicity a bit?
Just a thought, Every map out there seems like its more complicated then it needs to be
Sotis the terrain is what ruined it for me, Its like they tried to take all 10 textures in their set and put them and smear them together, And it just doesn't feel right when playing, it looks good in editor though. and it LOOKS good in game, but it FEELs awkward..
So maybe make simpler maps?
i dunno, The Popularity system is still crap though.
Can't speak about SOTIS, but this is actually a valid point in general that I agree with. I've been part of testing for many maps out there, and for a few I gave explicit recommendation to the mapper to simplify and qualify the gameplay rather than throw in all of advanced and complex features... and most of the time it was ignored or the mapper stopped working lol.
Starcraft 2 has a HUGE oppertunity to make new genres,
Like what? Literally EVERY map I've seen so far is in some way a rehash of stuff. Starcraft Universe is perhaps the most original project, and that's heavily influenced by WoW. Keep in mind 'FPS' is not a new genre.
Well, yes, maybe I am mistaken. But the thing is, that Sotis is a sc2 successor of dota from wc3. Utilizes sc2 game engine, trigger system and etc. It also feels a lot more faster than wc3s dota or LoL. For me, it actually is a "mega" map. I hate dota, almoust never play it. :( Although played LoL for some months :D
Yes, but again, no one is argueing that SOTIS isn't a DOTA successor =P. Sandround's point was, I think, that we're not seeing a similar phenomenom to how for example the original DOTA come into being. As in somebody making a fairly simple (but new and original) map, that map evolving, someone turning it into a really well polished and revolutionairy map that quickly gains a shitload of popularity and proceeds to be succeeded by a bunch of similar maps who follow the same concept but do some things differently. That's what Sandround is (again, I think) calling a 'mega map', and we certainly haven't seen that in SC2 yet. Not even Tofu or Starcraft universe quite reach those points.
Yup! A lot of maps I played like fleet assault and magecraft(forgot name) were very complicated! But that's probably because sc2 lets you do so much more. And personally, I like making complex maps that a newbie would just go, wtf? People would still play it though if they like it enough to learn. And I think the author would probably simplify it more if their maps actually get played. But why bother spending time streamlining when no one is going to play it anyways?
My starcruiser map is very complicated, but I made the map and I know every inch of the map. I thought about simplifying the UI to make it easier, but nah, I'm not bothering with the trouble. People who enjoyed that map learned how to play it anyways.
Also, yes the map evolution I'm talking about is what mozared said.
okay heres an Idea that would be HELL to make, But I think it would be possible, outlines appear on your screen and you have to draw them, when you draw them a unit spawns and sends a unit to the other team, to kill oncoming enemys you click them, maybe 4-5 times to maket hem explode.
The better you draw the outline the stronger the unit is.
Like I said Hard to make, But Completely original and off the top of my head.
okay heres an Idea that would be HELL to make, But I think it would be possible, outlines appear on your screen and you have to draw them, when you draw them a unit spawns and sends a unit to the other team, to kill oncoming enemys you click them, maybe 4-5 times to maket hem explode.
The better you draw the outline the stronger the unit is.
Like I said Hard to make, But Completely original and off the top of my head.
So you came up with a map where you perform an auxiliary action to spawn units on a battlefield that have to kill the enemy's main building? Yes, that's indeed completely original.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be a different and interesting spin on existing maps, but it's it's yet another Starjeweled ripoff; which is a play on Nexus Wars, which is a play on god-knows-what-map-from-Warcraft-3 which is a play on god-knows-what-map-from-StarCraft.
So you came up with a map where you perform an auxiliary action to spawn units on a battlefield that have to kill the enemy's main building? Yes, that's indeed completely original.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be a different and interesting spin on existing maps, but it's it's yet another Starjeweled ripoff; which is a play on Nexus Wars, which is a play on god-knows-what-map-from-Warcraft-3 which is a play on god-knows-what-map-from-StarCraft.
Okay I lied that totaly wasnt original, I mighta stole it from a mario party 4 mini game, Also Re-make BookSquirm LAwl
Okay I lied that totaly wasnt original, I mighta stole it from a mario party 4 mini game, Also Re-make BookSquirm LAwl
Then Agian if you think about it dota was a ripoff of the Warcraft 3 mission where you have to get illidan, while spawning troops, back and forth all Dota is is a Hero Tug of War game. Not original, just fun to play.
Yes, but again, no one is argueing that SOTIS isn't a DOTA successor =P.
Sandround's point was, I think, that we're not seeing a similar
phenomenom to how for example the original DOTA come into being. As in
somebody making a fairly simple (but new and original) map, that map
evolving, someone turning it into a really well polished and
revolutionairy map that quickly gains a shitload of popularity and
proceeds to be succeeded by a bunch of similar maps who follow the same
concept but do some things differently. That's what Sandround is (again,
I think) calling a 'mega map', and we certainly haven't seen that in SC2
yet. Not even Tofu or Starcraft universe quite reach those points.
For f*ck sakes do i have to link to my project that everyone seems to be f*cking ignoring AGAIN?
THE Card Game has been called innovative and even original. I think one of the big factors what attracts more and more gamers towards it is fast paced design as WCIII's Card Shuffle is kinda slow paced.
THE Card Game (or really any card game) is another variation of what I named above, though; Nexus Wars with units spawning through some auxiliary action(/minigame). That said, it was relatively original, have to give you that.
as mozared puts it we clearly havent seen a "revolutionairy map that quickly gains a shitload of popularity and
proceeds to be succeeded by a bunch of similar maps who follow the same
concept but do some things differently."
there is still room for that tho, cross your fingers and hope that blizzard changes their crappy popularity system.
It's not the community that has a chip on their shoulder.
If I had more time, I'd be able to link you about 500 topics on these boards as well as the official Blizzboards to make you reconsider that statement.
I disagree with you 99.9% on your terrain comment. In my opinion, beautiful terrain is one of the most important factors of immersion, which is one thing that will keep people playing for a long time. You seem to say that it doesn't matter how good the terrain looks so long as players know what to do. Using that logic, a terrain like this would be acceptable.
I think one of our biggest problems is that people are having trouble getting fresh ideas off their heads. You don't see a map life starbattle just pop out everyday from someone's mind. Also, I think we should have other players that don't map make tell some ideas that they have, for a bunch of people have a ton of ideas, or even demand remakes of games, and yet they don't want to go through all of the crap just to make a freaking game on starcraft that probably won't even get popular.
I guess, all I'm trying to point out is, no matter what we do, what we make, or what we think of, they will all be similar. Eventually, after some time, (And when the popularity thing is sorted out <.<) people will look out for the maps that are most clean cut, and most fun to play. They don't care how hard it was to make, if it's complicated or simple, or even if there are a few bugs here and there. If the game is fun, then it's fun. What can you do?
And also, it's not bad to think of new things, but it's not bad to copy games onto starcraft. As long as you give credit to past creators (Which, I think, is neccassary) then you can simply copy the maps over into the galaxy editor. The thing that pisses me off, however, is when people go and make the maps completely different, but copy the name and overall general idea, and don't give credit. That's crap. However, it only comes back to the point that as long as the maps are fun. people will play them. And I'm sure, that later on, people will begin choosing the most clean cut maps. That's when terrain, small bugs, and minor details will begin to be spotted, and noticed, and that overall ideas of a game will be, occording to the players, easy-peasy stuff, and that it should be expected of editors to make a perfect map. Since, however, there aren't many extreme map makers out there yet, there are few maps that show that type of extreme skill and patience. These maps will become normal eventually, just takes time.
Lol, agree with Mozared 100 % on Terminator's comment, I almost had to take a moment to /facepalm that one.
Anyways, moving on, like to touch on a topic that I couldn't see much of in all these posts. That is, why do you decide to make a map? Why, I quite agree that the popularity system, the overall complexity of SC2 map developing, and the lack of pre-made models to make it look all medieval like is quite a problem if your goal is to have a hit map. If you have dreams of developing a map so fantastic, so amazing, that people come to your house to give you money for being special, that Blizzard gives you a million dollars a year just to put your name on all their products, the whole setup might be a bit of a problem for you!
Now, not to say I enjoy the way maps are distributed in any way shape or form, but where has all this fantasy come from? Spreading your map around was never a joy. I had to put a disclaimer on my game name, something like elements6NWlonghardrpg (had to use small case to make it fit), and even after that I'd have many join and leave because the map was too large or whatever. Then I would start it, and 2 or 3 would immediately leave because they didn't know how to play. So come on, can we stop with the fairy tales of how amazing it was, I know sometimes it'd be painful to find new stuff as it'd fill up too fast, get booted before you could download, whatever.
Point of all that being this, know why the hell you are making your map. I made about 4-5 maps in some amount of depth, only my Elements6 one made it past my folder, as the others weren't worthy, lol. My objective was simple, I really enjoyed some of the ideas out of the Elements series played, but found their difficulty lacking, and their variety in end units even worse. Found it really pitiful to have a battlecruiser end unit w/ 100 armor and 1k damage, then a carrier w/ 100 armor, and interceptors w/ 1k damage.... But now I digress, the main thing was I liked the idea, but wanted to make it a hell of a lot difficult for myself. I was very determined in this effort too, I didn't give a crap if no one ever wanted to play my map but me, maybe some friends on occasion.
So please, have a good reason to be making your map, and better yet make it a reasonable one. This kind of determination will help to produce a quality map, and you'll still be able to appreciate the fact you put forth the effort to make that idea happen. With that, people might even go and enjoy your map! May even be worth bragging rights in a nursing home in 40 years! But seriously, just make it for yourself :P
My reasons are simple, I'M BORED!!!! and want something to do.. When I was growing up if you told your parents you were "bored" you had to start cleaning, Because you arent bored when your Busy :D
I am reasonably new to SC2; but spent a long time editing in WC3. One thing that I have heard many times on this topic is, "Look at how long WC3 was out before quality maps were being made." Not that there aren't quality maps, but there aren't a lot of quality maps that are active at once. WC3 also, over the years had many, many community sites; a lot more people were interested in editing, and it was easier to do a lot of the basic stuff. With SC2, if you want to do anything (except make a tug) you need to study the editor for a while beforehand.
I have asked some tug-of-war editors why they insist on using all of the existing game units with default abilities and upgrades; and none of them would admit to laziness. Rather, they used the blizzard reasoning when SC2 came out, "We don't want to confuse people who are used to playing normal starcraft." Which really, holds true. In every hero-types game I have played, everyone moved their hero forwards... then back... then forward... then back... then forward... then back... then forward... then back... always staying close to the combat, but never taking damage. And whoever can do this for the longest without getting distracted, eventually wins.
I mean no offense to this community, but the post that necro'd this, about the fact that people think a shiny terrain, massive spell flashy boom, an ability that can do 16 things at once, but has no practical use, and pictures of ninjas... seem too have entirely too much weight on custom games. It is all about how pretty a screenshot of the game can look, rather than how the game plays.
Can't speak about SOTIS, but this is actually a valid point in general that I agree with. I've been part of testing for many maps out there, and for a few I gave explicit recommendation to the mapper to simplify and qualify the gameplay rather than throw in all of advanced and complex features... and most of the time it was ignored or the mapper stopped working lol.
Like what? Literally EVERY map I've seen so far is in some way a rehash of stuff. Starcraft Universe is perhaps the most original project, and that's heavily influenced by WoW. Keep in mind 'FPS' is not a new genre.
Yes, but again, no one is argueing that SOTIS isn't a DOTA successor =P. Sandround's point was, I think, that we're not seeing a similar phenomenom to how for example the original DOTA come into being. As in somebody making a fairly simple (but new and original) map, that map evolving, someone turning it into a really well polished and revolutionairy map that quickly gains a shitload of popularity and proceeds to be succeeded by a bunch of similar maps who follow the same concept but do some things differently. That's what Sandround is (again, I think) calling a 'mega map', and we certainly haven't seen that in SC2 yet. Not even Tofu or Starcraft universe quite reach those points.
@Taintedwisp: Go
Yup! A lot of maps I played like fleet assault and magecraft(forgot name) were very complicated! But that's probably because sc2 lets you do so much more. And personally, I like making complex maps that a newbie would just go, wtf? People would still play it though if they like it enough to learn. And I think the author would probably simplify it more if their maps actually get played. But why bother spending time streamlining when no one is going to play it anyways?
My starcruiser map is very complicated, but I made the map and I know every inch of the map. I thought about simplifying the UI to make it easier, but nah, I'm not bothering with the trouble. People who enjoyed that map learned how to play it anyways.
Also, yes the map evolution I'm talking about is what mozared said.
okay heres an Idea that would be HELL to make, But I think it would be possible, outlines appear on your screen and you have to draw them, when you draw them a unit spawns and sends a unit to the other team, to kill oncoming enemys you click them, maybe 4-5 times to maket hem explode.
The better you draw the outline the stronger the unit is.
Like I said Hard to make, But Completely original and off the top of my head.
So you came up with a map where you perform an auxiliary action to spawn units on a battlefield that have to kill the enemy's main building? Yes, that's indeed completely original.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be a different and interesting spin on existing maps, but it's it's yet another Starjeweled ripoff; which is a play on Nexus Wars, which is a play on god-knows-what-map-from-Warcraft-3 which is a play on god-knows-what-map-from-StarCraft.
Okay I lied that totaly wasnt original, I mighta stole it from a mario party 4 mini game, Also Re-make BookSquirm LAwl
Then Agian if you think about it dota was a ripoff of the Warcraft 3 mission where you have to get illidan, while spawning troops, back and forth all Dota is is a Hero Tug of War game. Not original, just fun to play.
For f*ck sakes do i have to link to my project that everyone seems to be f*cking ignoring AGAIN?
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/project-workplace/28775-third-person-dot-a-tri-faction-public-alpha/?page=2#p28
and those videos are just of the old version!
/thread
THE Card Game has been called innovative and even original. I think one of the big factors what attracts more and more gamers towards it is fast paced design as WCIII's Card Shuffle is kinda slow paced.
@Bounty_98: Go
Your map sucks, there's not enough Europeans working on it.
@Clord: Go
THE Card Game (or really any card game) is another variation of what I named above, though; Nexus Wars with units spawning through some auxiliary action(/minigame). That said, it was relatively original, have to give you that.
whoa there, patience young padawan...
as mozared puts it we clearly havent seen a "revolutionairy map that quickly gains a shitload of popularity and proceeds to be succeeded by a bunch of similar maps who follow the same concept but do some things differently."
there is still room for that tho, cross your fingers and hope that blizzard changes their crappy popularity system.
It's not the community that has a chip on their shoulder.
If I had more time, I'd be able to link you about 500 topics on these boards as well as the official Blizzboards to make you reconsider that statement.
this
@Terminator8: Go
Congratulations, this was without a doubt the most pointless necro ever.
@Mozared: Go
At least it was related to me :P
I think one of our biggest problems is that people are having trouble getting fresh ideas off their heads. You don't see a map life starbattle just pop out everyday from someone's mind. Also, I think we should have other players that don't map make tell some ideas that they have, for a bunch of people have a ton of ideas, or even demand remakes of games, and yet they don't want to go through all of the crap just to make a freaking game on starcraft that probably won't even get popular.
I guess, all I'm trying to point out is, no matter what we do, what we make, or what we think of, they will all be similar. Eventually, after some time, (And when the popularity thing is sorted out <.<) people will look out for the maps that are most clean cut, and most fun to play. They don't care how hard it was to make, if it's complicated or simple, or even if there are a few bugs here and there. If the game is fun, then it's fun. What can you do?
And also, it's not bad to think of new things, but it's not bad to copy games onto starcraft. As long as you give credit to past creators (Which, I think, is neccassary) then you can simply copy the maps over into the galaxy editor. The thing that pisses me off, however, is when people go and make the maps completely different, but copy the name and overall general idea, and don't give credit. That's crap. However, it only comes back to the point that as long as the maps are fun. people will play them. And I'm sure, that later on, people will begin choosing the most clean cut maps. That's when terrain, small bugs, and minor details will begin to be spotted, and noticed, and that overall ideas of a game will be, occording to the players, easy-peasy stuff, and that it should be expected of editors to make a perfect map. Since, however, there aren't many extreme map makers out there yet, there are few maps that show that type of extreme skill and patience. These maps will become normal eventually, just takes time.
Lol, agree with Mozared 100 % on Terminator's comment, I almost had to take a moment to /facepalm that one.
Anyways, moving on, like to touch on a topic that I couldn't see much of in all these posts. That is, why do you decide to make a map? Why, I quite agree that the popularity system, the overall complexity of SC2 map developing, and the lack of pre-made models to make it look all medieval like is quite a problem if your goal is to have a hit map. If you have dreams of developing a map so fantastic, so amazing, that people come to your house to give you money for being special, that Blizzard gives you a million dollars a year just to put your name on all their products, the whole setup might be a bit of a problem for you!
Now, not to say I enjoy the way maps are distributed in any way shape or form, but where has all this fantasy come from? Spreading your map around was never a joy. I had to put a disclaimer on my game name, something like elements6NWlonghardrpg (had to use small case to make it fit), and even after that I'd have many join and leave because the map was too large or whatever. Then I would start it, and 2 or 3 would immediately leave because they didn't know how to play. So come on, can we stop with the fairy tales of how amazing it was, I know sometimes it'd be painful to find new stuff as it'd fill up too fast, get booted before you could download, whatever.
Point of all that being this, know why the hell you are making your map. I made about 4-5 maps in some amount of depth, only my Elements6 one made it past my folder, as the others weren't worthy, lol. My objective was simple, I really enjoyed some of the ideas out of the Elements series played, but found their difficulty lacking, and their variety in end units even worse. Found it really pitiful to have a battlecruiser end unit w/ 100 armor and 1k damage, then a carrier w/ 100 armor, and interceptors w/ 1k damage.... But now I digress, the main thing was I liked the idea, but wanted to make it a hell of a lot difficult for myself. I was very determined in this effort too, I didn't give a crap if no one ever wanted to play my map but me, maybe some friends on occasion.
So please, have a good reason to be making your map, and better yet make it a reasonable one. This kind of determination will help to produce a quality map, and you'll still be able to appreciate the fact you put forth the effort to make that idea happen. With that, people might even go and enjoy your map! May even be worth bragging rights in a nursing home in 40 years! But seriously, just make it for yourself :P
@Deadzergling:
My reasons are simple, I'M BORED!!!! and want something to do.. When I was growing up if you told your parents you were "bored" you had to start cleaning, Because you arent bored when your Busy :D
I am reasonably new to SC2; but spent a long time editing in WC3. One thing that I have heard many times on this topic is, "Look at how long WC3 was out before quality maps were being made." Not that there aren't quality maps, but there aren't a lot of quality maps that are active at once. WC3 also, over the years had many, many community sites; a lot more people were interested in editing, and it was easier to do a lot of the basic stuff. With SC2, if you want to do anything (except make a tug) you need to study the editor for a while beforehand.
I have asked some tug-of-war editors why they insist on using all of the existing game units with default abilities and upgrades; and none of them would admit to laziness. Rather, they used the blizzard reasoning when SC2 came out, "We don't want to confuse people who are used to playing normal starcraft." Which really, holds true. In every hero-types game I have played, everyone moved their hero forwards... then back... then forward... then back... then forward... then back... then forward... then back... always staying close to the combat, but never taking damage. And whoever can do this for the longest without getting distracted, eventually wins.
I mean no offense to this community, but the post that necro'd this, about the fact that people think a shiny terrain, massive spell flashy boom, an ability that can do 16 things at once, but has no practical use, and pictures of ninjas... seem too have entirely too much weight on custom games. It is all about how pretty a screenshot of the game can look, rather than how the game plays.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418