There's been a question in the back of my mind lately.. not only will this help me get an idea on how to flesh out the map I'm currently working on, maybe we can also collaborate and get our ideas out there.
What do you, as a custom map and Use Map Settings connoisseur like to see most in custom maps? Whether it be stat tracking, cinematics, flashy abilities, variety of units, or what have you, pick one or two primary things and maybe specify your favorite custom map type. They don't necessarily need to be limited to the list I just gave.
Personally, I do like to see numbers (whether or not they mean anything) in custom maps in the form of stats, whether it be level, shows of progress, win loss ratio, and anything along those lines. On top of a stats, I also like to see impressive, flashy triggers (whether simple or outrageously complex) included in custom games for a more polished look.
So, I'm going to have to say:
Primary: Statistics and Tracking Secondary: Custom Triggers Favorite Mode: Survival
Easy to learn and hard to master in terms of what? Complex tech trees and gameplay? Or do you mean that it just takes a long time to complete everything?
I'd say polished gameplay/game mechanics first. It means whatever possibilities of action the player has, it must be easy-to-use, free of bugs/errors, fun and interesting... all at the same time. Nothing must be overpowered or useless, everything is here for a reason and it serves its purpose well. And ultimately, if you make it balanced for both casual and hardcore players, it's even better. There is nothing more frustrating for casual players to lose because the map is all about skills (micro-management maps comes to my mind), and hardcore players (especially in SC2) are pissed off when losing because of a noob.
I'd say good replayability is secondary but very important nonetheless. What's the point of having a good gameplay if it's the same map over and over again? It needs to offer more than one option that will make the game a little bit random (but not too much, because gameplays based on randomness are very frustrating for players!). It could be all about spells, a set of heroes, levels of difficulty, but it needs to be fun whether you play it one time or a thousand times.
And finally, I think nice visual effects and graphics are a huge plus. It's always enjoyable to explore a well-made map, and it's even more enjoyable if it shows something unique (maps with raising lava were kind of cool in the first months, now it has become too common). Each designer has its own way to make maps, the Weekly Terraining Exercise on these forums is a pretty good example for this. It makes all the difference when the map is nice, it's more immersive that way.
VagabondAngel, I mean maps that are easy to learn and play well on the first run, without having to spend forever reading or analyzing stuff. Yet, the same maps should offer the potential to always improve one's gameplay and do better than the previous game.
Games such as Chess and Go are easy to learn, yet there's no end to how far one can improve his gameplay through better planning and strategy.
Games such as Tic-Tac-Toe are easy to learn but one quickly reaches the optimal gameplay, without any way to further improve one's gameplay hence it becomes uninteresting.
- I like seeing custom dialog backgrounds. I hate the default ones which you can see everywhere. It helps to make your map stand out.
- Also, I hate usage of the HUGE leaderboard. Just build your own which should be much more compact and don't use half of my 4:3 screen. I dislike most tower defenses because they use the bloated default leaderboard.
- Make your UI usable & playable with every default resolution. It's terrible if people can't properly see everything because the don't have a wide-screen monitor.
Polished mechanics, map, and visuals in general, including UI. I hate when I play a map and the tooltips are screwed and icons are totally unrelated to what they should indicate. If devil is in the details, I'm a devil hunter.
VagabondAngel, you can try Night of the Dead since you like survival, stats and custom triggers.
For me, the key things I look for custom maps are similar to ZealNaga (it's simple to grasp but not easy to bring to life):
i) Replayability
ii) Polish
iii) Unique look
It really depends on the type of game I am playing. For minigames or tower defenses w/e I couldn't care less about stat tracking. However, if you cannot save your progress in, lets say, an RPG, well... ;)
What do you mean by custom triggers? No melee game? In that case, I agree for the most part, the SC2 melee gameplay does not really catch me.
Other than that, I like simplicity, depth and polish. These points are again dependent on the type of game, an RPG does not need to be THAT simple, it may have some degree of complexity. On the other hand, a tower defense probably does not need as much polishment and depth as an RPG.
Also, uniqueness is overrated, it does not have to be something absolutely new if it is well executed. It is quite unrealistic to think you can come up with a completely new type of game for every map, which is fun to play, easy to learn and doable with the SC2 engine. Once in a while, there might be a new type of game like that, but that doesn't mean all the other maps doing something, which existed before, are utter trash.
Not to mention, it has to be fun ;) Sometimes, I cannot really give a reason, why I am enjoying one game but not the other.
I'll agree with most that was said except that I personally don't care about statistics and tracking. I know most people love to look at their numbers, but I mostly care only about basic stats that affect me.
But right now all I really want is something different and polished. Something dark. Probably because I recently played The Binding of Isaac.
I remember map called "Xel'Naga Relicts", great concept, apparently too hard to properly execute since not a single good map like that has been releases (or has? somebody please tell me that something like that map is on b-net right now).
Another great map I remember from SC1 was KhaosKreators Final Requiem. An extremly hard co-op map where you get a feeling that you're taking a part in armageddon. It's different, It's challenging, It's atmospheric, It's simple to understand yet so damn hard to beat. I think that these are qualities that I'd like to see in a next map I'll play.
VagabondAngel, you can try Night of the Dead since you like survival, stats and custom triggers.
For me, the key things I look for custom maps are similar to ZealNaga (it's simple to grasp but not easy to bring to life): i) Replayability ii) Polish iii) Unique look
I have tried that map myself, but it's so complicated. I'd have to run it a few more times to really understand whats going on, but the first time you play it, it's overwhelming the amount of complexity. I think Klishu mentioned that point above. I also second your polished and unique look of maps suggestion.
VagabondAngel, I mean maps that are easy to learn and play well on the first run, without having to spend forever reading or analyzing stuff. Yet, the same maps should offer the potential to always improve one's gameplay and do better than the previous game.
Games such as Chess and Go are easy to learn, yet there's no end to how far one can improve his gameplay through better planning and strategy.
Games such as Tic-Tac-Toe are easy to learn but one quickly reaches the optimal gameplay, without any way to further improve one's gameplay hence it becomes uninteresting.
Thanks for clearing this up. I can agree with everything you've said here. A very dynamic map is a good thing, for both experts, and newbies. It only makes sense to have a map that feels fresh enough every time you play it while you get better at whatever type it is.
Polish is definitely high on the list for me. Mindblowing terrain, but aside from that, well organized tooltips, no sloppy dummy units flying around, proper grammar/spelling used, no weird looking animation... that jazz.
Past that, probably depth, but not at the cost of accessibility. I know SOTIS is just another DOTA, but even if you've played LoL or HoN for ages, it's still not easy to access because you need to learn all the heroes and their builds specifically. LoL solved this briliantly by adding a 'recommended items' list that allow you to get right into the game and still not be completely detrimental to your team if you're new.
in my case it is quite different than all of you. game play is way more important then graphics in my opinion. i don't care about stat tracking for the most part as it usually causes problems... take marine arena people ragequit at the sign of bad stats on their team. . but replayability is important too. but for the most part i like a not so complex map. i don't like playing very complex or impossible to play maps like star battle or zealot frenzy or galaxy vampirism and i would've tried mafia if it didn't have the name "mafia" it just blows me away how bad some of the names thought up are. no offense darkrenevant and fully customizeable maps aren't usually good they just annoy me cause they tend to be bad maps due to the setup of the map. like dark deeds. that map was terrible. what i like is a fun and easy to learn hard to master and also contains very little micro and macro... sadly few maps or games in general are like this... and no who's the killer maps are like that except parasite which has been broken and sent to the graveyard of maps... aka its been pushed below page 20 by now im sure. sorry for the rant but this is how i feel.
Greetings, forum.
There's been a question in the back of my mind lately.. not only will this help me get an idea on how to flesh out the map I'm currently working on, maybe we can also collaborate and get our ideas out there.
What do you, as a custom map and Use Map Settings connoisseur like to see most in custom maps? Whether it be stat tracking, cinematics, flashy abilities, variety of units, or what have you, pick one or two primary things and maybe specify your favorite custom map type. They don't necessarily need to be limited to the list I just gave.
Personally, I do like to see numbers (whether or not they mean anything) in custom maps in the form of stats, whether it be level, shows of progress, win loss ratio, and anything along those lines. On top of a stats, I also like to see impressive, flashy triggers (whether simple or outrageously complex) included in custom games for a more polished look.
So, I'm going to have to say:
Primary: Statistics and Tracking
Secondary: Custom Triggers
Favorite Mode: Survival
What say you?
@VagabondAngel01: Go
Uniqueness, easy to learn, polished, fun, stat tracking.
Easy to learn, hard to master... and most important of all, something new and different!
@StragusMapster: Go
Easy to learn and hard to master in terms of what? Complex tech trees and gameplay? Or do you mean that it just takes a long time to complete everything?
I'd say polished gameplay/game mechanics first. It means whatever possibilities of action the player has, it must be easy-to-use, free of bugs/errors, fun and interesting... all at the same time. Nothing must be overpowered or useless, everything is here for a reason and it serves its purpose well. And ultimately, if you make it balanced for both casual and hardcore players, it's even better. There is nothing more frustrating for casual players to lose because the map is all about skills (micro-management maps comes to my mind), and hardcore players (especially in SC2) are pissed off when losing because of a noob.
I'd say good replayability is secondary but very important nonetheless. What's the point of having a good gameplay if it's the same map over and over again? It needs to offer more than one option that will make the game a little bit random (but not too much, because gameplays based on randomness are very frustrating for players!). It could be all about spells, a set of heroes, levels of difficulty, but it needs to be fun whether you play it one time or a thousand times.
And finally, I think nice visual effects and graphics are a huge plus. It's always enjoyable to explore a well-made map, and it's even more enjoyable if it shows something unique (maps with raising lava were kind of cool in the first months, now it has become too common). Each designer has its own way to make maps, the Weekly Terraining Exercise on these forums is a pretty good example for this. It makes all the difference when the map is nice, it's more immersive that way.
- I like seeing custom dialog backgrounds. I hate the default ones which you can see everywhere. It helps to make your map stand out.
- Also, I hate usage of the HUGE leaderboard. Just build your own which should be much more compact and don't use half of my 4:3 screen. I dislike most tower defenses because they use the bloated default leaderboard.
- Make your UI usable & playable with every default resolution. It's terrible if people can't properly see everything because the don't have a wide-screen monitor.
Polished mechanics, map, and visuals in general, including UI. I hate when I play a map and the tooltips are screwed and icons are totally unrelated to what they should indicate. If devil is in the details, I'm a devil hunter.
VagabondAngel, you can try Night of the Dead since you like survival, stats and custom triggers.
For me, the key things I look for custom maps are similar to ZealNaga (it's simple to grasp but not easy to bring to life): i) Replayability ii) Polish iii) Unique look
I like Simplicity.
It really depends on the type of game I am playing. For minigames or tower defenses w/e I couldn't care less about stat tracking. However, if you cannot save your progress in, lets say, an RPG, well... ;)
What do you mean by custom triggers? No melee game? In that case, I agree for the most part, the SC2 melee gameplay does not really catch me.
Other than that, I like simplicity, depth and polish. These points are again dependent on the type of game, an RPG does not need to be THAT simple, it may have some degree of complexity. On the other hand, a tower defense probably does not need as much polishment and depth as an RPG.
Also, uniqueness is overrated, it does not have to be something absolutely new if it is well executed. It is quite unrealistic to think you can come up with a completely new type of game for every map, which is fun to play, easy to learn and doable with the SC2 engine. Once in a while, there might be a new type of game like that, but that doesn't mean all the other maps doing something, which existed before, are utter trash.
Not to mention, it has to be fun ;) Sometimes, I cannot really give a reason, why I am enjoying one game but not the other.
I'll agree with most that was said except that I personally don't care about statistics and tracking. I know most people love to look at their numbers, but I mostly care only about basic stats that affect me.
But right now all I really want is something different and polished. Something dark. Probably because I recently played The Binding of Isaac.
I remember map called "Xel'Naga Relicts", great concept, apparently too hard to properly execute since not a single good map like that has been releases (or has? somebody please tell me that something like that map is on b-net right now).
Another great map I remember from SC1 was KhaosKreators Final Requiem. An extremly hard co-op map where you get a feeling that you're taking a part in armageddon. It's different, It's challenging, It's atmospheric, It's simple to understand yet so damn hard to beat. I think that these are qualities that I'd like to see in a next map I'll play.
Polish: Descriptions, lore, tooltips and UI.
Looks: Terrain, good use of models and animations.
MOBA: Good pace and relaxing.
Thank you so much everyone for your replies. I really didn't know if this thread would be here when I got back.
I have tried that map myself, but it's so complicated. I'd have to run it a few more times to really understand whats going on, but the first time you play it, it's overwhelming the amount of complexity. I think Klishu mentioned that point above. I also second your polished and unique look of maps suggestion.
Thanks for clearing this up. I can agree with everything you've said here. A very dynamic map is a good thing, for both experts, and newbies. It only makes sense to have a map that feels fresh enough every time you play it while you get better at whatever type it is.
I don't know about everyone else, but I do agree with you on the UI portion. I absolutely LOVE fancy UIs and tooltips. It's all about the cosmetics!
The pace of a map is a good note too. I'll have to keep that in mind as far as casual / hardcore is concerned with a custom scenario.
Polish is definitely high on the list for me. Mindblowing terrain, but aside from that, well organized tooltips, no sloppy dummy units flying around, proper grammar/spelling used, no weird looking animation... that jazz.
Past that, probably depth, but not at the cost of accessibility. I know SOTIS is just another DOTA, but even if you've played LoL or HoN for ages, it's still not easy to access because you need to learn all the heroes and their builds specifically. LoL solved this briliantly by adding a 'recommended items' list that allow you to get right into the game and still not be completely detrimental to your team if you're new.
in my case it is quite different than all of you. game play is way more important then graphics in my opinion. i don't care about stat tracking for the most part as it usually causes problems... take marine arena people ragequit at the sign of bad stats on their team. . but replayability is important too. but for the most part i like a not so complex map. i don't like playing very complex or impossible to play maps like star battle or zealot frenzy or galaxy vampirism and i would've tried mafia if it didn't have the name "mafia" it just blows me away how bad some of the names thought up are. no offense darkrenevant and fully customizeable maps aren't usually good they just annoy me cause they tend to be bad maps due to the setup of the map. like dark deeds. that map was terrible. what i like is a fun and easy to learn hard to master and also contains very little micro and macro... sadly few maps or games in general are like this... and no who's the killer maps are like that except parasite which has been broken and sent to the graveyard of maps... aka its been pushed below page 20 by now im sure. sorry for the rant but this is how i feel.