I've repeatedly stated that his work is really good and impressive, it's just that I don't want to play it because he threw a fit multiple times, and can't seem to contain his rage at Blizzard for not going far above and beyond the call in working on the custom maps system.
That wasn't the point of the thread though: The point was that it's not going to get us anywhere to look immature, so why do it unless all you're trying to do is get more people to play your map, and at that point you're actively hurting the reputation of the mapping community for those followers.
And i brought this up because it seems to be a prevalent attitude among many map makers ("Blizz gave us this awesome editor, but since they aren't giving us everything we want then imma get REAL upset and make snarky rude comments every chance i get"). It helps no one, least of all yourself, and only serves to make all mappers look like spoiled, unpleasable children.
There are some very well documented problems not only with the popularity system but the editor. This is NOT an amazing editor. The warcraft 3 editor was an amazing editor and spawned far more groundbreaking mods than this one did. Try the UDK (unreal developement kit), THAT is a f*cking amazing game editor.
Getting angry about legitimate issues is not immature, change often comes because enough people got angry about common concerns. To be honest it's your naive defense of blizzard's (awesome) editor that comes off as immature and a bit fanboyish.
Getting upset about defined issues is not a problem. Its when people like mephs post "Blizz i put 7 months into this thing and you didnt listen to me at ALL when i wanted you to, and my map isnt popular and its ALL your fault that these junky maps are on page one and not mine, im quitting now" that I have a problem. All i'm saying (for like the fifth time) is that attitude won't get what we want out of Blizzard.
I'm also not saying that the editor is perfect and doesn't need anything, but i'm just asking you to look at the massive amount of things you DO get instead of whining about what you don't have all of the time.
Last I checked, the Warcraft editor didn't have nearly as many features or as much flexibility as the Starcraft II editor. You had to do a lot more in triggers, and there also simply was a lot that wasn't possible or needed workarounds.
And UDK is a game engine, not a game editor. You have to write a lot of actual code to make a game with it...
Psst, not throwing rotten tomatoes at blizzard every chance I get is not being a fanboy. It's being (less at least) biased.
Yeah... i guess Mephs post could have been a bit more mature. But as someone else burned very badly by blizzard's mod community I very much related to it.
And you don't need to write code to mod UDK, in fact I earned an honoreable mention in the make something unreal contest for best FPS mod using nothing but kismet, a visual based script editor.
Anyway, i just felt this post wasn't accomplishing anything, seemed like whining about whining, and now here i am whining about the whining about the whining :P.
It certainly wasnt intended to be meta-whining. I'm just trying to ask the entire community to "Come up here on the upside" if you will, because realize it or not we have it pretty good. After all, would you like to go back to the Starcraft I days when you couldn't even edit any unit stats? :P
I like Mephs, and had the privilege of working with him and Rodrigo on a few of the live casts. That being said - I do not like Smashcraft, or at least not while it was in it's early stages, and I believe the reasons which I am going to list out might have something to do with it's lack of popularity.
When Smashcraft was released it was actually quite popular, at least on page 2, it then fell from popularity and then had a hard time coming back up to where it once was. This was simple IMO (and I must stress that part - in my own opinion), the gameplay whilst unique and innovative, it was also repetitive, too simple and boring.
It is the type of game that I would want to play on a console, with a group of mates, where you can laugh, drink, physically bump each other to try and get them to stuff up their combo moves ... not on a computer by myself against 12 year old kids.
I believe you would be hard pressed to find anyone with more knowledge about Dota on these forums than myself, being an Ex-TDA Moderator. Comparing Smashcraft to Dota is fail, not epic fail, just fail, like when you loose the game. Smashcraft as the name suggests - is related to Smash Bros, perhaps with a twist of PvP arena - it is nothing like Dota, it is not a Dota without creeps and items, because a Dota without creeps and Items is just a fucken Arena like Smash Bros.
It is all good to cry and complain about the Popularity System, it is a huge piece of fail from Blizzard, and yes - we have been given broken and half hearted promises time and time again, but it will never ever be solved. Think of it this way - Say I created the next Dota on Sc2, and it is by far the most played map, with twice the hours played of the next down map, kind of like Sotis now. I would want people to have an easy way to access it, because if it is at the top of the list it has to be doing something right.
However, on the other hand - Compare Phantom Mode to my map, Phant3m. Whilst my map is still in beta, and the new version of it is far more advanced than the beta, Phantom Mode is still page 1.
This is down to a few things ...
1) Phantom Mode already has an established community that percieves any other map to be a threat.
2) Phantom Mode has Husky, each time he did a video on that map he doubled its popularity and pushed it from Page 2 to Page 1.
3) Phantom Mode's innovative features have been quietly taken from my map, while basically now denying my map exists.
And 4) - The most important part ... I have never ever once advertised my map. Not once.
So if we take these things apart and look at them; the first part is that people play what they play, and it is very hard to get people to try new things. Every single person that said a bad thing about my map, while you could still talk about it on the Phantom forums (except for the Administrator) changed their mind after they played a single game, they were blown away at how far ahead Phant3m was from Phantom Mode.
The second part, is what makes maps on Battle.net 2.0, commentators and their huge fanbases are the single best source of players. Husky has proven that one single video about a custom map on his channel can absolutely sky rocket it to Page 1 or 2. I contacted Husky about eight weeks ago asking him if he would be interested in casting my map, I never heard a reply and a week ago he casted Phantom Mode, firmly locking its position on the first page.
The third part is absolutely necessary for any designer - knowing where to hide their sources, while denying they ever copied/borrowed/lent/stole the ideas from the other party. I can write all about Phantom Mode on my blog that I want to, and say that it is painfully obvious Phantom Mode copied all its recent changes from my map - however, 99% of the Phantom community is not on the Sc2Phantom.com forums, nor reads my blog - they simply don't give a shit, they are happy playing the same map they play everyday.
The fourth part is the hardest, you need to get in the inner circle, you need to network, connect with people and get them on their side. It is true that to some, my blog could make me sound like an asshole trying to get my own way, to others, I am speaking the truth and am someone to be put on a pedastool and worshiped (taking the two greatest extremes of possibilities). I know I have a great number of supporters, and haters, and these two groups of people will always exist regardless of what I choose to do. The vast majority of people will make up their mind based on my skill, and skill alone.
I have networked with enough people that I could possibly take down Phantom Mode and cement my map in it's place, however it is too premature to guess which map will come out on top of the Phantom wars. Whilst my map is more innovative, more refined and is generally the better map by far - Phantom Mode's creator Infernal, and his Admin Brian, have a nice way of downplaying my ideas and then using them as their own. The greater population will never be the wiser, because it has that established popularity, and it is more than possible that when I release Phant3m officially, that Phantom Mode will again copy the ideas I have and my map will stay in darkness.
This is not generally bad for the community, as my map just being there is pushing Phantom Mode to go far beyond what it ever would. but it is still disheartening to see something you work hundreds if not thousands of hours on, have very little reward.
So I know where Mephs is coming from - But I understand that my map isn't popular because it is simply not getting out there. Yes, popular maps stay popular because Battle.net's system is shit, but if my map was popular I wouldn't want to change it because I would be loosing the core of my map's popularity, on the other hand because my map has literally no games, it would be easy to blame it on the system, but I know until I have honestly to god exhausted every advertising opportunity, and my map is actually great and not a pile of shit, I can only blame myself for its failings.
If your map is that much better than SotIS, then put the work into advertising it!
What did SOTIS do to advertise besides slapping "DOTA" on its name? Thats all it had to do. Because people were waiting to pounce on the first DOTA that popped up in the list.
Eckolnovkol even has said it himself in IRC, that no one played SOTIS until he put "DOTA All-Stars" in the title.
Try releasing something that hasn't been done in custom mapping (that is, don't make a TD, Tug, or an SC2 remake of a popular SC1 custom map) and see how easy it is to "just advertise". You sound like Blizzard, and we know how awesome they know their own system. Here's a hint, they had to FEATURE their own fucking maps because they weren't getting to page 1 even with all the hype they gave them.
Thats a good indicator of how the pop system works. Its a fucking shitstorm and the list does NOT represent "quality" instead its just a popularity contest. Its almost like DJ'ing, you don't get anywhere for having talent. It helps, but you get places by kissing ass and knowing more people. So if your name is relatively unknown (like "SOTIS") you will get nowhere in the DJ'ing business. If you know lots of people, or lots of people can relate to you (suddenly change your game's name to "DOTA") boom, overnight page 1.
Then, once you've secured your position, its hard to lose it, simply because people will just play whatever is fed to them in popularity. Again, referencing the DJ'ing scene, people listen to the radio, the radio feeds them what's "popular", then they just want to hear those songs at the clubs, and nothing new or exciting. They listen to a song 5 times on the way to the club, then 100 more times at the club, then 5 more times on the way home. They don't want new content, they just want the mainstream to FEED them what they "want".
The popularity system just makes the mapmaking community competitive, hostile, and biggoted.
AND THIS ^ was the point of my "rage post", to point that out, and also to incite people to give my map a look, because I know it will be popular if people just check it out. It took Totalbiscuit noticing the map and featuring it to get it anywhere, you know why? BECAUSE HE IS POPULAR. All my map making talent in the world will get me nowhere without popularity being enforced.
Its a shame too, because crazy talented mappers like Malu, Chirus, and Crazyfingers will not ever have their maps see the light of day on the custom list (if he tries to publish them) because of how popularity works, until someone big features his work. Sad facts, I wouldn't be surprised if that's why he has not released something yet.
Hate me if you will, the "rage post" that's incited so much controversy was merely a potshot at getting visibility. To that effect, it worked. It jumped to page 2 overnight when I made that thread, after sitting at page 3 forever no matter how much "positive" advertising I did. So "negative" advertising works better. Keep that in mind ;)
By the way, this is yet more free publicity for him. I never thought acting immature would be a brilliant marketing strategy.
Fact of life: People love drama. Why are reality shows so popular?
All I got to say. Immaturity and negative attention get you more "popularity" than being passive and friendly. Sad state and blizzard needs to fix the way custom maps are presented, or it will only get worse in this fashion.
And how very convenient, now that you have the popularity you so raged about, you say that the post on battle.net was staged and planned :)
Wasn't entirely staged, it was meant to make a point, but also to rile up interest in the map (most of which were people going I HATE THIS GUY HE SOUNDS SO CHILDISH IM GOING TO GO SEE HOW BAD HIS MAP IS - oh hey this is cool).
Most people missed the real point of the thread, and instead focused on how I was bashing other maps on page 1. Though I still stand by my opinion (note the bold) that maps like Zealot Frenzy (hi Incinerate, hope you're still mad.), Marine Arena, and Vexal's TD (hey baby) are pretty awful maps in general, and mostly as an example of how the popularity system does not reflect "quality" or "polished" maps at all.
I have to Say that i agree with Mephs on the fact that its kinda dumb that Dota will be front runner for popularity for the remainder of blizzards B.Net servers staying up. It proves true with DOTA in WcIII.You can hop on WcIII now and get in a dota game 10 seconds after logging in. But games that dont hold up to the DOTA popularity swifty drop in popularity on this version of bnet but on the old WCIII Style i could still host it and get a successful game going within 4-5 mins. In the new Bnet (Not to Bash any map makers they are very good) The popular ones stay on top, the new dota, Marine wars, Desert strike, Vexals td and so on. The "New" Check box should be for truly NEW maps not patched maps and more categories would be a plus theres i think a total of 3 pages of TDs ATM i can easily look at all of those but in Custom theres hundreds of pages.....
But mephs dont make Blizzard give up on us by acting like a spoiled teenager because 2 guys made a version of a WORLD WIDE favorite game type . it earned that top spot long before any of our maps if you dont like it make a map thats better and get some buddies on and play it dont spend 13 hours of your day finding a way to bash everyone else go out and do something about it w/o bitching to everyone about it. Theres no legal copyright saying you couldnt copy that map and make it with different units and better items.
Then dont bitch well all know it sucks. that hour or two hours you spent whining could have been productive map making time and although you may be "popular" now you lost all respect with half the people that read this forum........
And a little side note respect is one thing that is really taken for granted. i respect everyone till they disrespect me or something important to me. Every person on here has the right to bash you for posting that. it creates a stereotype that none of us want to fall under. I ENJOY the fact that within 2 days i have found this site help me make a map faster and better and if you keep it up most people wont even help they will just go "YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT BY NOW!!!! GEZ" But most of the people on here have respect for someone trying to make a map and help them find what they need
I can say myself that you are a spoiled little teenager wanting all the attention from everyone when in the end your just setting your self up to be hated by the majority of the community
That's true, but life isn't fair.
/facepalm
I've repeatedly stated that his work is really good and impressive, it's just that I don't want to play it because he threw a fit multiple times, and can't seem to contain his rage at Blizzard for not going far above and beyond the call in working on the custom maps system.
That wasn't the point of the thread though: The point was that it's not going to get us anywhere to look immature, so why do it unless all you're trying to do is get more people to play your map, and at that point you're actively hurting the reputation of the mapping community for those followers.
@RCIX: Go
I have no idea whether his work is impressive or not. I'm far too self-absorbed to play anything someone else makes.
A mapmaker threw a fit to draw attention to a horribly broken system that has crushed the souls of many map makers.
You are throwing a fit over this fit for what purpose? To save blizzard's feelings?
This was a fit? *scratches head*
Lol, you must have a low fit threshold then.
And i brought this up because it seems to be a prevalent attitude among many map makers ("Blizz gave us this awesome editor, but since they aren't giving us everything we want then imma get REAL upset and make snarky rude comments every chance i get"). It helps no one, least of all yourself, and only serves to make all mappers look like spoiled, unpleasable children.
There are some very well documented problems not only with the popularity system but the editor. This is NOT an amazing editor. The warcraft 3 editor was an amazing editor and spawned far more groundbreaking mods than this one did. Try the UDK (unreal developement kit), THAT is a f*cking amazing game editor.
Getting angry about legitimate issues is not immature, change often comes because enough people got angry about common concerns. To be honest it's your naive defense of blizzard's (awesome) editor that comes off as immature and a bit fanboyish.
Getting upset about defined issues is not a problem. Its when people like mephs post "Blizz i put 7 months into this thing and you didnt listen to me at ALL when i wanted you to, and my map isnt popular and its ALL your fault that these junky maps are on page one and not mine, im quitting now" that I have a problem. All i'm saying (for like the fifth time) is that attitude won't get what we want out of Blizzard.
I'm also not saying that the editor is perfect and doesn't need anything, but i'm just asking you to look at the massive amount of things you DO get instead of whining about what you don't have all of the time.
Last I checked, the Warcraft editor didn't have nearly as many features or as much flexibility as the Starcraft II editor. You had to do a lot more in triggers, and there also simply was a lot that wasn't possible or needed workarounds.
And UDK is a game engine, not a game editor. You have to write a lot of actual code to make a game with it...
Psst, not throwing rotten tomatoes at blizzard every chance I get is not being a fanboy. It's being (less at least) biased.
Yeah... i guess Mephs post could have been a bit more mature. But as someone else burned very badly by blizzard's mod community I very much related to it.
And you don't need to write code to mod UDK, in fact I earned an honoreable mention in the make something unreal contest for best FPS mod using nothing but kismet, a visual based script editor.
Anyway, i just felt this post wasn't accomplishing anything, seemed like whining about whining, and now here i am whining about the whining about the whining :P.
Lol :)
It certainly wasnt intended to be meta-whining. I'm just trying to ask the entire community to "Come up here on the upside" if you will, because realize it or not we have it pretty good. After all, would you like to go back to the Starcraft I days when you couldn't even edit any unit stats? :P
Ha, honestly? YES :D but keep in mind the bar was a lot lower then too! We would be gods.
The editor is great and is certainly not the problem with SC2. Blizzard made the game well. They just failed with everything else.
I like Mephs, and had the privilege of working with him and Rodrigo on a few of the live casts. That being said - I do not like Smashcraft, or at least not while it was in it's early stages, and I believe the reasons which I am going to list out might have something to do with it's lack of popularity.
When Smashcraft was released it was actually quite popular, at least on page 2, it then fell from popularity and then had a hard time coming back up to where it once was. This was simple IMO (and I must stress that part - in my own opinion), the gameplay whilst unique and innovative, it was also repetitive, too simple and boring.
It is the type of game that I would want to play on a console, with a group of mates, where you can laugh, drink, physically bump each other to try and get them to stuff up their combo moves ... not on a computer by myself against 12 year old kids.
I believe you would be hard pressed to find anyone with more knowledge about Dota on these forums than myself, being an Ex-TDA Moderator. Comparing Smashcraft to Dota is fail, not epic fail, just fail, like when you loose the game. Smashcraft as the name suggests - is related to Smash Bros, perhaps with a twist of PvP arena - it is nothing like Dota, it is not a Dota without creeps and items, because a Dota without creeps and Items is just a fucken Arena like Smash Bros.
It is all good to cry and complain about the Popularity System, it is a huge piece of fail from Blizzard, and yes - we have been given broken and half hearted promises time and time again, but it will never ever be solved. Think of it this way - Say I created the next Dota on Sc2, and it is by far the most played map, with twice the hours played of the next down map, kind of like Sotis now. I would want people to have an easy way to access it, because if it is at the top of the list it has to be doing something right.
However, on the other hand - Compare Phantom Mode to my map, Phant3m. Whilst my map is still in beta, and the new version of it is far more advanced than the beta, Phantom Mode is still page 1.
This is down to a few things ...
1) Phantom Mode already has an established community that percieves any other map to be a threat.
2) Phantom Mode has Husky, each time he did a video on that map he doubled its popularity and pushed it from Page 2 to Page 1.
3) Phantom Mode's innovative features have been quietly taken from my map, while basically now denying my map exists.
And 4) - The most important part ... I have never ever once advertised my map. Not once.
So if we take these things apart and look at them; the first part is that people play what they play, and it is very hard to get people to try new things. Every single person that said a bad thing about my map, while you could still talk about it on the Phantom forums (except for the Administrator) changed their mind after they played a single game, they were blown away at how far ahead Phant3m was from Phantom Mode.
The second part, is what makes maps on Battle.net 2.0, commentators and their huge fanbases are the single best source of players. Husky has proven that one single video about a custom map on his channel can absolutely sky rocket it to Page 1 or 2. I contacted Husky about eight weeks ago asking him if he would be interested in casting my map, I never heard a reply and a week ago he casted Phantom Mode, firmly locking its position on the first page.
The third part is absolutely necessary for any designer - knowing where to hide their sources, while denying they ever copied/borrowed/lent/stole the ideas from the other party. I can write all about Phantom Mode on my blog that I want to, and say that it is painfully obvious Phantom Mode copied all its recent changes from my map - however, 99% of the Phantom community is not on the Sc2Phantom.com forums, nor reads my blog - they simply don't give a shit, they are happy playing the same map they play everyday.
The fourth part is the hardest, you need to get in the inner circle, you need to network, connect with people and get them on their side. It is true that to some, my blog could make me sound like an asshole trying to get my own way, to others, I am speaking the truth and am someone to be put on a pedastool and worshiped (taking the two greatest extremes of possibilities). I know I have a great number of supporters, and haters, and these two groups of people will always exist regardless of what I choose to do. The vast majority of people will make up their mind based on my skill, and skill alone.
I have networked with enough people that I could possibly take down Phantom Mode and cement my map in it's place, however it is too premature to guess which map will come out on top of the Phantom wars. Whilst my map is more innovative, more refined and is generally the better map by far - Phantom Mode's creator Infernal, and his Admin Brian, have a nice way of downplaying my ideas and then using them as their own. The greater population will never be the wiser, because it has that established popularity, and it is more than possible that when I release Phant3m officially, that Phantom Mode will again copy the ideas I have and my map will stay in darkness.
This is not generally bad for the community, as my map just being there is pushing Phantom Mode to go far beyond what it ever would. but it is still disheartening to see something you work hundreds if not thousands of hours on, have very little reward.
So I know where Mephs is coming from - But I understand that my map isn't popular because it is simply not getting out there. Yes, popular maps stay popular because Battle.net's system is shit, but if my map was popular I wouldn't want to change it because I would be loosing the core of my map's popularity, on the other hand because my map has literally no games, it would be easy to blame it on the system, but I know until I have honestly to god exhausted every advertising opportunity, and my map is actually great and not a pile of shit, I can only blame myself for its failings.
What did SOTIS do to advertise besides slapping "DOTA" on its name? Thats all it had to do. Because people were waiting to pounce on the first DOTA that popped up in the list.
Eckolnovkol even has said it himself in IRC, that no one played SOTIS until he put "DOTA All-Stars" in the title.
Try releasing something that hasn't been done in custom mapping (that is, don't make a TD, Tug, or an SC2 remake of a popular SC1 custom map) and see how easy it is to "just advertise". You sound like Blizzard, and we know how awesome they know their own system. Here's a hint, they had to FEATURE their own fucking maps because they weren't getting to page 1 even with all the hype they gave them.
Thats a good indicator of how the pop system works. Its a fucking shitstorm and the list does NOT represent "quality" instead its just a popularity contest. Its almost like DJ'ing, you don't get anywhere for having talent. It helps, but you get places by kissing ass and knowing more people. So if your name is relatively unknown (like "SOTIS") you will get nowhere in the DJ'ing business. If you know lots of people, or lots of people can relate to you (suddenly change your game's name to "DOTA") boom, overnight page 1.
Then, once you've secured your position, its hard to lose it, simply because people will just play whatever is fed to them in popularity. Again, referencing the DJ'ing scene, people listen to the radio, the radio feeds them what's "popular", then they just want to hear those songs at the clubs, and nothing new or exciting. They listen to a song 5 times on the way to the club, then 100 more times at the club, then 5 more times on the way home. They don't want new content, they just want the mainstream to FEED them what they "want".
The popularity system just makes the mapmaking community competitive, hostile, and biggoted.
AND THIS ^ was the point of my "rage post", to point that out, and also to incite people to give my map a look, because I know it will be popular if people just check it out. It took Totalbiscuit noticing the map and featuring it to get it anywhere, you know why? BECAUSE HE IS POPULAR. All my map making talent in the world will get me nowhere without popularity being enforced.
Its a shame too, because crazy talented mappers like Malu, Chirus, and Crazyfingers will not ever have their maps see the light of day on the custom list (if he tries to publish them) because of how popularity works, until someone big features his work. Sad facts, I wouldn't be surprised if that's why he has not released something yet.
Hate me if you will, the "rage post" that's incited so much controversy was merely a potshot at getting visibility. To that effect, it worked. It jumped to page 2 overnight when I made that thread, after sitting at page 3 forever no matter how much "positive" advertising I did. So "negative" advertising works better. Keep that in mind ;)
Fact of life: People love drama. Why are reality shows so popular?
All I got to say. Immaturity and negative attention get you more "popularity" than being passive and friendly. Sad state and blizzard needs to fix the way custom maps are presented, or it will only get worse in this fashion.
@Mephs: Go
Wow... this reply and the one in the offtopic forums, they really reinforced the opinion I had of you after your little rant on battle.net.
And how very convenient, now that you have the popularity you so raged about, you say that the post on battle.net was staged and planned :)
Wasn't entirely staged, it was meant to make a point, but also to rile up interest in the map (most of which were people going I HATE THIS GUY HE SOUNDS SO CHILDISH IM GOING TO GO SEE HOW BAD HIS MAP IS - oh hey this is cool).
Most people missed the real point of the thread, and instead focused on how I was bashing other maps on page 1. Though I still stand by my opinion (note the bold) that maps like Zealot Frenzy (hi Incinerate, hope you're still mad.), Marine Arena, and Vexal's TD (hey baby) are pretty awful maps in general, and mostly as an example of how the popularity system does not reflect "quality" or "polished" maps at all.
But that's just my opinion.
There's also no reason for me to make yet another DOTA clone, I wanted something that hasn't been done on SC2 yet.
And a little side note respect is one thing that is really taken for granted. i respect everyone till they disrespect me or something important to me. Every person on here has the right to bash you for posting that. it creates a stereotype that none of us want to fall under. I ENJOY the fact that within 2 days i have found this site help me make a map faster and better and if you keep it up most people wont even help they will just go "YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT BY NOW!!!! GEZ" But most of the people on here have respect for someone trying to make a map and help them find what they need
I can say myself that you are a spoiled little teenager wanting all the attention from everyone when in the end your just setting your self up to be hated by the majority of the community
I'd write up a reply but ChPops just said it better than i ever could. :P