Take Smashcraft, it is really well made, polished and probably balanced (Only played it once).
But it isn't FUN. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS TO PEOPLE AND 9/10 OF THE PEOPLE ON THESE FORUMS CAN'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
Now I'm not saying it isn't fun for anyone at all, obviously some people will enjoy it, but most people including myself, really just don't find it enjoyable.
Everyone here blames the popularity system for their maps failing, but in all honestly that isn't the problem.
The problem is most of you are trying to make overly complex and polished maps. These may be fun for a niche group of people, but MOST people will NOT enjoy them at all. I used to map like this back in Warcraft 3 and I bet none of you have ever heard of any of my maps from there.
Basically I'm saying stop blaming Blizzard and other people because not everyone loves the shit out of your maps.
Stop and think for one second and realize that you simply aren't the best mapper ever in the whole wide world and that maybe you should put some more time into thinking about how to make a map fun and less time into thinking about how to make it complicated and fancy.
There are indeed problems with the popularity system that make getting a good map noticed extremely difficult, but there are also still just plain bad ideas.
I agree the popularity system needs some changes, but it isn't the main problem with why some of these maps aren't being played.
Everyone needs to stop blaming Blizzard and take a second to ask themselves if their map is actually fun before they go around saying it's all the popularity system's fault.
At the very least, stop calling out other maps and saying that your own map is better. It just makes you look like a douche. (Not directed at you Motive)
Exactly. People need to take a step back, and ask themselves, could I play this map nonstop for a day?
A map needs to not only be fun to play the first time (it was interesting once we got the hang of SmashCraft) but it needs to change, even if just a little, to add some replay value.
Hitting F, G, and A in different ways 1000 times to make the enemy's health bar drop a little until they die over 5 minutes never gets any more exciting.
After a while, it feels like grinding in WoW.
Yes, I have shiny effects and abilities, but ... ugh... I need a break. (Actually, I quit WoW entirely.)
Mapmaking is currently just an extra amusement added to the game. If you don't enjoy making maps so much that you don't think the time you have spend on your map worths it, you should't make custom maps. Because thats currently imposible that your map gets popular with the popularity system. Thats at least what keeps me working on my custom map.
I think the best we can do right now is to develop a competitive AI for our maps, so we can at least play and enjoy our maps against the computer.
Take Smashcraft, it is really well made, polished and probably balanced (Only played it once).
But it isn't FUN. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS TO PEOPLE AND 9/10 OF THE PEOPLE ON THESE FORUMS CAN'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THAT. Now I'm not saying it isn't fun for anyone at all, obviously some people will enjoy it, but most people including myself, really just don't find it enjoyable.
"Fun" is mostly opinion. A good list should help THE PLAYER, no matter WHO he is, find the kind of maps HE would enjoy and like to play. Currently, it just lets them find maps the most amount of people play. Blizzard hoped it would appease the majority. And it sort of does. However, just because the largest amount of people play those maps doesn't mean that all of the minorities playing the other maps (if they could) wouldn't equal up to more.
I, for one, believe that Blizzard knows the system needs work and will improve it. But I think because of a combination of two things:
A. Might not be as important as some other things
B. It would require such a LARGE amount of revisions (or totally reworked)
blizzard has decided to fix it later. (Probably for one of the two expansions, mostly, though the fixing may be spread out among several things.)
EDIT: NOT to imply that I don't think the game list could use immediate, quick, easy fixes!
I entirely agree and they really do need to make some changes soon to the popularity system.
It is way too hard to test new maps and obviously niche maps are difficult to play at any time. This really only requires some minor changes IMO.
My main point was that there are so many mappers on these forums and on the official custom maps forums that think that because their map isn't at the top of the list, that the popularity system is broken and that it is Blizzard's fault that no one likes their maps. While, at least in the case of the post this topic is referring to, it is really just a mapper who is way too full of themselves and thinks that his maps are better than everyone else's. Basically I just want people to take a step back and realize that not every map ever made deserves to be popular.
I saw an episode of American Idol a couple weeks back. There's a fat lady who came on stage telling the judges what a great singer she is and everyone says so. So she starts out to amaze them with a awful screeching singing voice. The judges said no and she started arguing that is it because she is fat? She obviously has a great voice and the reason the judges said no because she is fat! She stormed off the stage angrily. Sounds familiar?
My main point was that there are so many mappers on these forums and on the official custom maps forums that think that because their map isn't at the top of the list, that the popularity system is broken and that it is Blizzard's fault that no one likes their maps. While, at least in the case of the post this topic is referring to, it is really just a mapper who is way too full of themselves and thinks that his maps are better than everyone else's. Basically I just want people to take a step back and realize that not every map ever made deserves to be popular.
That's not entirely true. The popularity system is mostly to blame. Maps don't have the visibility they had before in older Blizzard games. How are you supposed to GET people to join in the first place, without spending unfathomable hours boosting your map?
Besides, I really don't think mapmakers care that much about their map being "popular", they care more about it being VISIBLE and READILY PLAYABLE.
Yeah onesoga I know its not "that kind of map". Wasnt hating on it. Just trying to state some solid opinions, behind the reasons I dont find it very fun.
Would be interested in seeing reasons why people do like it though.
Speaking of fighting games.... MVC3 just came out today... Hell yeahs...
It's not only a matter of mappers not doing funny maps. The main problem in my opinion is that SC2 players only like gameplays which are pretty close to the original game (they especially fancy melee). As soon as you do a game following its own gameplay rules, even simple ones, most SC2 players are kind of lost. They only get used to it if the goal of your game is to select a unit and rush against the others. Pretty much what the melee is about. Pretty much what Star Battle, DotA, Marine Arena, and a few other popular maps are about...
It doesn't mean these maps are good (I personally got bored of Star Battle after 10 games or something), but SC2 players like them because A- these are on the first pages, and B- the gameplay is pretty much all about control units + attack, which is how they play in melee. Modify the rules just by adding custom teams, each with a custom power, and they're completely lost and don't know what to do. This is why Phantom is a good map but still not very popular. This is why Jurassic Park, Pictionary, NotD, and many, many other really well-made maps are not popular. They were still made by mappers from completely different backgrounds and levels.
And I have to agree with Soga, "I really don't think mapmakers care that much about their map being "popular", they care more about it being VISIBLE and READILY PLAYABLE."... Our maps can't get very popular if we can't even find players to test them and give us feedback afterwards.
I released a new map a few days ago and am currently simply testing it with friends. It now sits at the bottom of page 3 just from testing it. To test I simply went to the "Looking For Custom Games" channel and asked people to help test, it takes a few minutes, but it isn't impossible. Now if I join the lobby I can usually see a few people actually trying to play.
I honestly think everyone is exaggerating how bad the popularity system is. If you want your map to get to page 3 it is entirely possible and if anyone likes your map it will stay at page 3 and maybe even start to rise over time.
At page 4 I would say it becomes possible to actually get a game full of players and simply play your map and it really isn't that hard to get to page 4. It takes a little effort, sure, but it is entirely possible.
I'm not saying the maps at the top are the best, but they are the maps people have enjoyed enough that every time they reset the popularity those maps rise back to the top again and again.
You may have noticed some maps were once at the top and have now completely vanished. To me this means people were only playing it because it was new, they wanted to try it, and they could actually play it. But if a map stays at the top through multiple resets I genuinely believe it deserves to be there and is a map that is well made for its genre.
@Soga
I agree that people SHOULDN'T care if their map is popular and SHOULD only care that they can play it whenever. But they actually CAN do that right now. As I said above go to the "Looking for Custom Games" channel and ask people to play. They WILL and you will make some friends in the process that you can later ask to play and it will be even EASIER. But everyone still says they can NEVER play their map when they are actually just bitching that their map isn't popular.
I don't know on what server you are, but on the EU server in the channel "looking for custom games" people are only looking for melee games... it's like "wtf that dude looks for people to test a custom map? get out!!" So after several attempts I gave up looking for testers on Battle.net. Most of the time even the Mapster-Channel is empty. Sometimes 2-3 guys are there, but usually they are afk or don't respond or just don't care.
So it seems that mapmakers have to find other ways to make their own map popular. The Popularity System as it is now definitely doesn't help you with that. Though I doubt that the current system is meant to make your map popular... It just shows you what people like to play, nothing more.
That whole thread is shit actually.. but I love seeing all the debates inside of it :D
In my opinion, the only reason why we should be mapping is because we love to.
I've spent a hundred hours on a cinematic in wacraft 3 in which I had put my voice onto 11 characters, epic battles and 15 minutes long. I showed it to 30 people only as a highschool project and that was all. I'm still proud I did it, don't mind if it's 100 hours that you would call ''lost''. I had fun doing the cinematic and what is life but having fun?
I wish to be a doctor, I'm studying for that. In my spare time I work on my SC2 RPG map. It may never comes out, I may put 200 hours on it (already put a hundred), I don't mind. If I can play it with my couple friends and my brother, that will make it all nice.
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You guys really don't get it do you?
Take Smashcraft, it is really well made, polished and probably balanced (Only played it once).
But it isn't FUN. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS TO PEOPLE AND 9/10 OF THE PEOPLE ON THESE FORUMS CAN'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THAT. Now I'm not saying it isn't fun for anyone at all, obviously some people will enjoy it, but most people including myself, really just don't find it enjoyable.
Everyone here blames the popularity system for their maps failing, but in all honestly that isn't the problem. The problem is most of you are trying to make overly complex and polished maps. These may be fun for a niche group of people, but MOST people will NOT enjoy them at all. I used to map like this back in Warcraft 3 and I bet none of you have ever heard of any of my maps from there.
Basically I'm saying stop blaming Blizzard and other people because not everyone loves the shit out of your maps. Stop and think for one second and realize that you simply aren't the best mapper ever in the whole wide world and that maybe you should put some more time into thinking about how to make a map fun and less time into thinking about how to make it complicated and fancy.
There are indeed problems with the popularity system that make getting a good map noticed extremely difficult, but there are also still just plain bad ideas.
I agree the popularity system needs some changes, but it isn't the main problem with why some of these maps aren't being played. Everyone needs to stop blaming Blizzard and take a second to ask themselves if their map is actually fun before they go around saying it's all the popularity system's fault.
At the very least, stop calling out other maps and saying that your own map is better. It just makes you look like a douche. (Not directed at you Motive)
@PhantomInfernal: Go
Exactly. People need to take a step back, and ask themselves, could I play this map nonstop for a day?
A map needs to not only be fun to play the first time (it was interesting once we got the hang of SmashCraft) but it needs to change, even if just a little, to add some replay value.
Hitting F, G, and A in different ways 1000 times to make the enemy's health bar drop a little until they die over 5 minutes never gets any more exciting.
After a while, it feels like grinding in WoW.
Yes, I have shiny effects and abilities, but ... ugh... I need a break. (Actually, I quit WoW entirely.)
Mapmaking is currently just an extra amusement added to the game. If you don't enjoy making maps so much that you don't think the time you have spend on your map worths it, you should't make custom maps. Because thats currently imposible that your map gets popular with the popularity system. Thats at least what keeps me working on my custom map.
I think the best we can do right now is to develop a competitive AI for our maps, so we can at least play and enjoy our maps against the computer.
"Fun" is mostly opinion. A good list should help THE PLAYER, no matter WHO he is, find the kind of maps HE would enjoy and like to play. Currently, it just lets them find maps the most amount of people play. Blizzard hoped it would appease the majority. And it sort of does. However, just because the largest amount of people play those maps doesn't mean that all of the minorities playing the other maps (if they could) wouldn't equal up to more.
I, for one, believe that Blizzard knows the system needs work and will improve it. But I think because of a combination of two things:
A. Might not be as important as some other things
B. It would require such a LARGE amount of revisions (or totally reworked)
blizzard has decided to fix it later. (Probably for one of the two expansions, mostly, though the fixing may be spread out among several things.)
EDIT: NOT to imply that I don't think the game list could use immediate, quick, easy fixes!
@TheSkunk2: Go
I entirely agree and they really do need to make some changes soon to the popularity system. It is way too hard to test new maps and obviously niche maps are difficult to play at any time. This really only requires some minor changes IMO.
My main point was that there are so many mappers on these forums and on the official custom maps forums that think that because their map isn't at the top of the list, that the popularity system is broken and that it is Blizzard's fault that no one likes their maps. While, at least in the case of the post this topic is referring to, it is really just a mapper who is way too full of themselves and thinks that his maps are better than everyone else's. Basically I just want people to take a step back and realize that not every map ever made deserves to be popular.
I saw an episode of American Idol a couple weeks back. There's a fat lady who came on stage telling the judges what a great singer she is and everyone says so. So she starts out to amaze them with a awful screeching singing voice. The judges said no and she started arguing that is it because she is fat? She obviously has a great voice and the reason the judges said no because she is fat! She stormed off the stage angrily. Sounds familiar?
Melee heroes have auto attack. Their A attack is just an extra thing to give you more DPS if you can land it right.
He changed that in a semi-recent update, making the models bigger and easier to click on.
That's because it really isn't that kind of map. It's more of a fighting game than a MOBA.
Hm. If there were items, they wouldn't do too much for your guy (would screw up balance otherwise).
Because... it is a fighting game. That's the point. The game takes much of its inspiration from Blazblue. Look it up.
Anyway, not to add heat to this discussion - I just wanted to clear up some confusion about what Smashcraft is and what it isn't.
EDIT:
That's not entirely true. The popularity system is mostly to blame. Maps don't have the visibility they had before in older Blizzard games. How are you supposed to GET people to join in the first place, without spending unfathomable hours boosting your map?
Besides, I really don't think mapmakers care that much about their map being "popular", they care more about it being VISIBLE and READILY PLAYABLE.
@OneSoga: Go
Yeah onesoga I know its not "that kind of map". Wasnt hating on it. Just trying to state some solid opinions, behind the reasons I dont find it very fun.
Would be interested in seeing reasons why people do like it though.
Speaking of fighting games.... MVC3 just came out today... Hell yeahs...
@SouLCarveRR: Go
MVC?!11 MODEL VIEW CONTROLLER?
OH MY GOD
Sorry, computer science major. I have no clue what MVC is other than in that context. I fail.
Many posts i see : "whats this Nexus wars, i can't believe ppl play this." or " Why are some ppl playing all these boring maps, WHY??"
I think you guys need to stop getting confused at what people play on sc2. Psst, I have a secret to tell you, come closer.
(People play those maps because they like it, accept it already shhh)
mvc:
@QueenGambit: Go
Im sad that Guile appears to be left out of this one =(
@PhantomInfernal: Go
It's not only a matter of mappers not doing funny maps. The main problem in my opinion is that SC2 players only like gameplays which are pretty close to the original game (they especially fancy melee). As soon as you do a game following its own gameplay rules, even simple ones, most SC2 players are kind of lost. They only get used to it if the goal of your game is to select a unit and rush against the others. Pretty much what the melee is about. Pretty much what Star Battle, DotA, Marine Arena, and a few other popular maps are about...
It doesn't mean these maps are good (I personally got bored of Star Battle after 10 games or something), but SC2 players like them because A- these are on the first pages, and B- the gameplay is pretty much all about control units + attack, which is how they play in melee. Modify the rules just by adding custom teams, each with a custom power, and they're completely lost and don't know what to do. This is why Phantom is a good map but still not very popular. This is why Jurassic Park, Pictionary, NotD, and many, many other really well-made maps are not popular. They were still made by mappers from completely different backgrounds and levels.
And I have to agree with Soga, "I really don't think mapmakers care that much about their map being "popular", they care more about it being VISIBLE and READILY PLAYABLE."... Our maps can't get very popular if we can't even find players to test them and give us feedback afterwards.
@ZealNaga: Go
I released a new map a few days ago and am currently simply testing it with friends. It now sits at the bottom of page 3 just from testing it. To test I simply went to the "Looking For Custom Games" channel and asked people to help test, it takes a few minutes, but it isn't impossible. Now if I join the lobby I can usually see a few people actually trying to play.
I honestly think everyone is exaggerating how bad the popularity system is. If you want your map to get to page 3 it is entirely possible and if anyone likes your map it will stay at page 3 and maybe even start to rise over time.
At page 4 I would say it becomes possible to actually get a game full of players and simply play your map and it really isn't that hard to get to page 4. It takes a little effort, sure, but it is entirely possible.
I'm not saying the maps at the top are the best, but they are the maps people have enjoyed enough that every time they reset the popularity those maps rise back to the top again and again.
You may have noticed some maps were once at the top and have now completely vanished. To me this means people were only playing it because it was new, they wanted to try it, and they could actually play it. But if a map stays at the top through multiple resets I genuinely believe it deserves to be there and is a map that is well made for its genre.
@Soga I agree that people SHOULDN'T care if their map is popular and SHOULD only care that they can play it whenever. But they actually CAN do that right now. As I said above go to the "Looking for Custom Games" channel and ask people to play. They WILL and you will make some friends in the process that you can later ask to play and it will be even EASIER. But everyone still says they can NEVER play their map when they are actually just bitching that their map isn't popular.
@PhantomInfernal: Go
I don't know on what server you are, but on the EU server in the channel "looking for custom games" people are only looking for melee games... it's like "wtf that dude looks for people to test a custom map? get out!!" So after several attempts I gave up looking for testers on Battle.net. Most of the time even the Mapster-Channel is empty. Sometimes 2-3 guys are there, but usually they are afk or don't respond or just don't care.
So it seems that mapmakers have to find other ways to make their own map popular. The Popularity System as it is now definitely doesn't help you with that. Though I doubt that the current system is meant to make your map popular... It just shows you what people like to play, nothing more.
@Oatin: Go
I am on the NA servers. Also if everyone starts doing this, it probably won't work anymore. :P
That whole thread is shit actually.. but I love seeing all the debates inside of it :D
In my opinion, the only reason why we should be mapping is because we love to.
I've spent a hundred hours on a cinematic in wacraft 3 in which I had put my voice onto 11 characters, epic battles and 15 minutes long. I showed it to 30 people only as a highschool project and that was all. I'm still proud I did it, don't mind if it's 100 hours that you would call ''lost''. I had fun doing the cinematic and what is life but having fun?
I wish to be a doctor, I'm studying for that. In my spare time I work on my SC2 RPG map. It may never comes out, I may put 200 hours on it (already put a hundred), I don't mind. If I can play it with my couple friends and my brother, that will make it all nice.