aaaaaand the rating doesn't change even if you fix the bug that caused low ratings...
Wait, so let me get this straight, I can't just post barely worked on maps, gradually make them better, and expect all my bad ratings to disappear? Crazy, guess map makers should only upload finished maps!
Wait, so let me get this straight, I can't just post barely worked on maps, gradually make them better, and expect all my bad ratings to disappear? Crazy, guess map makers should only upload finished maps!
Sometimes it happens that you upload an update with a game-breaking bug you didn't know of (it happened me once and exactly when my map was on the first page).
What do you do then?
Wait, so let me get this straight, I can't just post barely worked on maps, gradually make them better, and expect all my bad ratings to disappear? Crazy, guess map makers should only upload finished maps!
-> Discourages early publishing => discourages experimentation / early tests => less innovation, less maps, polished maps which might not be fun
Also, there is no effective way to get players that want to test a new map... in SCBW I just named my game "testing my new map" or something and people joined who expected something unfinished, but new (and playing with the map author).
For development purposes, the rating and open lobby system isn't great as it's not encouraging it.
Also, I would like to have arcade icons within the open lobby entry's tooltip. Melee maps show the terrain, so why don't arcade games show the map icon?
Sometimes it happens that you upload an update with a game-breaking bug you didn't know of (it happened me once and exactly when my map was on the first page).
What do you do then?
I've 1 star ratings because of players were dropped during loading screen. ^.^ But the issue was fixed some weeks after, but I don't expect the reviews to disappear.
Wait, so let me get this straight, I can't just post barely worked on maps, gradually make them better, and expect all my bad ratings to disappear? Crazy, guess map makers should only upload finished maps!
Yet getting feedback from players can be extremely useful, if not necessary, to finish many maps. How are we suppsoed to get that? Upload to mapster's map section? And what about bugs you only find when you play through battlenet? Because you know, we can't really test multiplayer maps offline...
A workaround I've seen for a few maps is to publish a test/alpha/beta that includes that information in the name, and when its considered finished a new map is published with a "new name" which is the previous name without test/alpha/beta/whatever in it.
Why do you complain about the possible answers, they are not my opinions but things that people think.
I just wanted to know why wc3 editors decided to not move to sc2, even if the new editor is a lot more powerful, that's why I posted it there
Because the questions I pointed out are not true, and it's like you are asking something that's not true - why people don't like it, but it's not true or rather not justified?
Low amount of assets - I said
Quote:
Why compare a 10 year old database of models to a 3 year one, where the new one is with models much more complex to make? Also have you seen the Assets here before making that statement?
Why is this considered an issue? Have you been in war3 in 2004-2005? You think there were so many models back then? I've witnessed that. No you see what it is now with the number of assets in war3, and compare it to the still young SC2 assets and say - 'Look how many war3 has compared to sc2 assets'.. It was like now, give it another 5 years then we will talk, plus models made for SC2 are much more time consuming, so naturally there will be less, also because the complex editor allows some modifications to do without having to edit the model - exactly cayse you can use Data editor instead of modelling...
I am not saying that the SC2 will have that many assets ever, and partially it is due to smaller community who left or never came due to Bnet 2.0 but what I mentioned like things that can be modified without having to edit the model to get the same result is also a factor. Then again we are comparing a game that came just recently with a 10 year old game? That's about the assets.
On the popularity system I cannot argue, I don't have a good overview of it, I only remember seeing people who liked the Open Games, I don't really know how much this helped.. it did at least a little.
The editor is harder, no argue here, but not really so hard to work as to not be able to start it,. is it? New people I think you mean people who never touched a single editor, maybe then yes, for such it would be impossible but did they not have the same problem with War3 editor? Not that much of a problem cause it was easier, right?
Ok how would you expect to do advanced things, edit lots of the physics that this game engine provides without having all these? Personally I would not mind easier work - you think I felt bad with War3 editor? It was great, I just got over it and realized with more features comes more difficulty - and besides I am still new to lots of things, I don't know how to do many things and I keep asking but I find the problem in me not knowing these, rather than blaming it on the editor.
What I think is the issue with models is - we have no tools like (Magos) War3 Model Editor, a tool where you can just import a model from various formats and change texture, particles, team color and export it to M3, it all has to be done with 3Ds max or the hard to use Blender. But again I blame it on me rather than complaining how it is too hard just cause I don't know how to do these properly in 3ds max or blender as I have always used Milkshape + Magos which was piece of cake in War3. I would love that too to be the same but with more options comes more difficulty.
If people just run away from everything that becomes mroe difficult, why advance games at all? Just give them basic physics and that's it.
Low amount of assets
Count the amount of unit models and icons in wc3 and sc2 and you'll know why I wrote this. I'm not talking about the lack of user made content because it depends directly on the amount of people interested in the editor (it's a consequence and not a cause)
I'm talking about the original assets you find with the game. The amount of models and icons on wc3 was bigger due to the jungle creeps and the amount of abilities/icons was huge due to heroes. When I first used the SC2 editor it was one of the first things I noticed, it had less then 50% of assets due to his different nature, less RPG more RTS...
The problem with the harder editor comes when you are able to use an instrument to do something (ex. make a simple unit, change it's color, create a new ability) and then you switch to a more complex one where all the things you learned simply don't work.
WC3 data editor was a lot less powerful but based on copy/paste + edit something.
Do the same on SC2 and you discover the unit has an actor and a model, if you want to change its color you have to send a message to its actor (wut?)
You want to create an ability? Oh wait you have to first create an effect.
You want an AOE ability? What about a search area effect? But with WC3 I could have just copy pasted an AOE ability and it would have worked...
While the trigger editor was pretty much the same, just more powerful, the data editor discouraged a lot of WC3 modders that decided to not move to SC2.
Talking newly as someone who played a lot of Warcraft 3 custom maps I would say the problem is and always has been the user interface for custom maps. At the moment I find I only play the 3 maps I enjoy and that is it. The interface turns me off wanting to try out new or different maps. And personally, I think it is solely responsible for the drop in players of the arcade, to this day.
1 - The only and easiest way to find a game was always some form of a 'Most Popular' list. Popularity, in all its forms, has been an aspect of SC2 custom scene since the beginning. The fact you couldn't see if anyone was currently hosting or playing a map meant that you were never sure if you were going to wait forever to get enough people to play a game of a new map. With warcraft 3, because the map was open you KNEW there was a host, it was on the constantly updated list or it was bot hosted because it was popular.
2 - The Interface is LAGGY I mean seriously, it bugs me to this day the numerous, insurmountable amount of things that made getting into any form of starcraft 2 map painful. That painful loading thing on 'entering lobby', the the stupid vague little loading bar if you just wanted to join a game. It gave you NO SIGN of what was going on and what likelihood you had of getting game. Warcraft 3 there was always a nice mix of people who wanted to host a particular game and it advertising fairly.
3 - Shitty games and poplar games and unpopular games all had EQUAL advertising coverage. Personally I hated DOTA, because the community was so terribly elitist (and I was a noob), so I would go and seek the more unusual games where noobs or learning was more encouraged. Even if 30-50% of the custom list was DOTA, and 45% was the same small map pool, you knew there was a game you'd never played sitting on the list with at least ONE person in it waiting to get a game started.
4 - People shifted really quickly. Because maps that weren't hosted weren't advertised or listed, it meant that even shit awful maps or games got enough people to play quickly.
The actual quality of any said maps, players etc just DOES NOT MATTER. If someone hosted a popular custom map they tweaked so they would always win or had poirn, you quit and were back into something new or familiar in 10-20 minutes at most. At the moment, I'm writing this post whilst waiting for a Starjeweled game (a very popular official blizzard map) for about 30 minutes and the only clue as to when I'll get a pop is a stupid fucking blue loading thing and Star Jeweled at the top of the screen.
Don't blame the mapmakers, the players, the change in the community, the availability of new games or any of that. Blame the godawful inability to play ANYTHING in SC2 that isn't Nexus Wars reliably. I still don't have a Starjewelled game. Is the lobby bugged, is no one queuing? I DON'T KNOW, I HAVE NO CONTROL. STAR FUCKING JEWELLED. It's on top rated and often on top played and I CAN NOT PLAY IT.
This is why Starcraft 2 Custom Maps have failed. Removing any ability to advertise your game, any ability to join a game that is advertised or even popular games sometimes. I remember fondly playing weird awful new maps with the guy who had made it, seeking some feedback on what worked and what didn't. Oh and don't even mention open games, the third item on a small button on a shitty list that immediately opens on Most Played and Highest Rated, on a shitty menu system that seems to take 3 seconds to load any new part of the ui because...? Seriously, why is it EVERY PART of the User Interface has a fucking loading screen? Oh I tried to use 'open games'. Was stuck waiting forever for noone to join. No thanks, if open games was the only or at least the first thing to pop up, arcade might have made a small comeback for HoTS.
Sure the Warcraft 3 Doors and Chains etc took as long but they were 100% cooler and there was not loading screens for EVERYTHING like now.
PS. I gave up queuing for Starjewelled may as well play nexus wars, at least I can get a game of that going.
I still don't see how you will get a simpler editor and at the same time be able to modify so many things that you couldn't manipulate with war3 editor. Unless you want all these removed. I also loved to make things in no time but now you can do so many things with a model and that means also the actors it's not just browsing the MDX file like it is in war3. I am still for simplyfing the SC2 editor and making things with less fields and pages, but there is no way it will get as easy as War3's. The mess came also when they decided the Advanced fields to actually be now Basic, and whatever you select you see a lot more fields than you did when you could choose between Basic and Advanced, this kind of made a bigger mess to anyone who hasn't started from 2010.
I agree about War3 having more ingame models, but the game may have increased with like 1GB, then again why not, since SC2 is the new Warcraft as well, who ever cares about War4 coming in X years... Well this is Starcraft, the models in war3 - Creeps were there cause Melee had them, now SC has no creeps, thus no models.
You know, they could just make some Warcraft 4 Mod, like what CS was to Half Life, where you get War 4 with this engine and there to add all Medieval models.
@Eimtr: Go
I'm not saying they should had dumbed it down, as it was at the beginning, the data editor just scared a lot people. They improved few things later on but it was already too late... something like
- Basic/Advanced fields not enabled by default
- Low amount of fields help tooltips
- No tutorials
- No wizards
Another issue was that people coming from WC3 wanted some basic features like inventory/leveling system that are harder to implement in SC2.
That's probably the main reason for the low amount of SC2 RPGs compared to WC3.
For those of you saying the popularity system is flawed... Shut up. A friend of mine recently spent 2 weeks designing a map. Is it a good, well designed map? No. Is it fun absolutely. It's just a simple poker tower defense. He might be a great map maker in general but two weeks for anyone would probably lead to a similar level of completion.
But on to the point. His map made it to the 2ND page in week 1. I know it recently reached the first page as well. But the point is if your map is fun and easy to learn than you can easily make page 1. So no it's not the system it's the players and the programmers.
Jack you are forgetting a major issue. So is Eitmr (who appears to be on the wrong website entirely).
This system you are referring to that isn't at fault was only implemented around last November, 2012.
That means the last parts of 2010 went by, 2011 blew completely and almost all of 2012 before anything useful was done. And if you count WoL Beta where the potential flaws were already being pointed out by some you find yourself with roughly 2 solid years of Blizzard not given a rats *. Whatever excuse you can make on behalf of Blizzard does no hold when you count that they had 2 solid years to fix it.
90% of all map development was tried before 1.5 came out. Most of the mappers had already gone before 1.5 came out. No I'm not saying one of the issues you guys are claiming may have not cropped up at some point even it if was fix. My point is the community nor the mod makers were even given the chance to fail.
So is Eitmr (who appears to be on the wrong website entirely).
Hey don't talk to me like that. I have been with SCBW editor in the 97-99 when some of you guys haven't even started using PC, Empire Earth editor, War 2 editor, War3 editor 2003-2010, SC2 editor since beta, I have a good idea what the problems you talk about in the editor are, I am sure you haven't even started mapping in those very old years. I do not play other games, I am either in melee or the editor. But I will not talk about Arcade problems, since I said in the first post, I am not much aware what problems are still ongoing.
Blizz could somehow unite lots of the things they added like Models+Actors in one or even the very same segment of a unit rather than a separate section, Abilities+Buttons+Behaviors+Effects in another, or all that to be under the same line of a Unit, all as data like war3 was. Ok whatever.
I truly hope that never happens. If they try and simplify it I think I'd cry. The data editor is well organized and isn't as hard as people make it sound. It definitely takes getting used to but it's effective and is easy once you get the idea.
Hi, been reading up on this for awhile, and I'm sort of curious if we could simply copy paste all comments made here and just paste them up on the site every couple months periodically in a special woe is me forum section. Nothing here is new, blizz won't be reading it, it is the same song and dance as always when discussing the popularity/arcade system. Save everyone a lot of hassle to just paste this discussion every time rather than like this. All it does is scare newcomers who might turn this shit around anyways, it is the same every time and not helpful to anyone.
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Well, that's another problem with StarCraft II custom maps, you decide whether to play them or not
from a bunch of stars.aaaaaand the rating doesn't raise back even if you fix the bug that caused low ratings...
Wait, so let me get this straight, I can't just post barely worked on maps, gradually make them better, and expect all my bad ratings to disappear? Crazy, guess map makers should only upload finished maps!
Incredible, I can't believe people are supporting the rating system.
aaaaaand the rating doesn't change even if you fix the bug that caused low ratings...
Sometimes it happens that you upload an update with a game-breaking bug you didn't know of (it happened me once and exactly when my map was on the first page).
What do you do then?
-> Discourages early publishing => discourages experimentation / early tests => less innovation, less maps, polished maps which might not be fun
Also, there is no effective way to get players that want to test a new map... in SCBW I just named my game "testing my new map" or something and people joined who expected something unfinished, but new (and playing with the map author).
For development purposes, the rating and open lobby system isn't great as it's not encouraging it.
Also, I would like to have arcade icons within the open lobby entry's tooltip. Melee maps show the terrain, so why don't arcade games show the map icon?
I've 1 star ratings because of players were dropped during loading screen. ^.^ But the issue was fixed some weeks after, but I don't expect the reviews to disappear.
Yet getting feedback from players can be extremely useful, if not necessary, to finish many maps. How are we suppsoed to get that? Upload to mapster's map section? And what about bugs you only find when you play through battlenet? Because you know, we can't really test multiplayer maps offline...
A workaround I've seen for a few maps is to publish a test/alpha/beta that includes that information in the name, and when its considered finished a new map is published with a "new name" which is the previous name without test/alpha/beta/whatever in it.
So the best solution is to simply have reviews and ratings private for the author.
Or a compromise for Deadzergling; have reviews public, but not ratings.
Someone hasn't read the title.
And seriously I think this forum is more of what you are after: Your text to link here...
@FockeWulf: Go
This was a rethorical question... cause I do see sometimes mentioning multiplayer melee and mixing esports with Arcade...
@Bibendus: Go
Because the questions I pointed out are not true, and it's like you are asking something that's not true - why people don't like it, but it's not true or rather not justified?
Low amount of assets - I said
Why is this considered an issue? Have you been in war3 in 2004-2005? You think there were so many models back then? I've witnessed that. No you see what it is now with the number of assets in war3, and compare it to the still young SC2 assets and say - 'Look how many war3 has compared to sc2 assets'.. It was like now, give it another 5 years then we will talk, plus models made for SC2 are much more time consuming, so naturally there will be less, also because the complex editor allows some modifications to do without having to edit the model - exactly cayse you can use Data editor instead of modelling...
I am not saying that the SC2 will have that many assets ever, and partially it is due to smaller community who left or never came due to Bnet 2.0 but what I mentioned like things that can be modified without having to edit the model to get the same result is also a factor. Then again we are comparing a game that came just recently with a 10 year old game? That's about the assets.
On the popularity system I cannot argue, I don't have a good overview of it, I only remember seeing people who liked the Open Games, I don't really know how much this helped.. it did at least a little.
The editor is harder, no argue here, but not really so hard to work as to not be able to start it,. is it? New people I think you mean people who never touched a single editor, maybe then yes, for such it would be impossible but did they not have the same problem with War3 editor? Not that much of a problem cause it was easier, right?
Ok how would you expect to do advanced things, edit lots of the physics that this game engine provides without having all these? Personally I would not mind easier work - you think I felt bad with War3 editor? It was great, I just got over it and realized with more features comes more difficulty - and besides I am still new to lots of things, I don't know how to do many things and I keep asking but I find the problem in me not knowing these, rather than blaming it on the editor.
What I think is the issue with models is - we have no tools like (Magos) War3 Model Editor, a tool where you can just import a model from various formats and change texture, particles, team color and export it to M3, it all has to be done with 3Ds max or the hard to use Blender. But again I blame it on me rather than complaining how it is too hard just cause I don't know how to do these properly in 3ds max or blender as I have always used Milkshape + Magos which was piece of cake in War3. I would love that too to be the same but with more options comes more difficulty.
If people just run away from everything that becomes mroe difficult, why advance games at all? Just give them basic physics and that's it.
@Eimtr: Go
Did you read what I wrote?
I'm talking about the original assets you find with the game. The amount of models and icons on wc3 was bigger due to the jungle creeps and the amount of abilities/icons was huge due to heroes. When I first used the SC2 editor it was one of the first things I noticed, it had less then 50% of assets due to his different nature, less RPG more RTS...
The problem with the harder editor comes when you are able to use an instrument to do something (ex. make a simple unit, change it's color, create a new ability) and then you switch to a more complex one where all the things you learned simply don't work.
WC3 data editor was a lot less powerful but based on copy/paste + edit something.
Do the same on SC2 and you discover the unit has an actor and a model, if you want to change its color you have to send a message to its actor (wut?)
You want to create an ability? Oh wait you have to first create an effect.
You want an AOE ability? What about a search area effect? But with WC3 I could have just copy pasted an AOE ability and it would have worked...
While the trigger editor was pretty much the same, just more powerful, the data editor discouraged a lot of WC3 modders that decided to not move to SC2.
Talking newly as someone who played a lot of Warcraft 3 custom maps I would say the problem is and always has been the user interface for custom maps. At the moment I find I only play the 3 maps I enjoy and that is it. The interface turns me off wanting to try out new or different maps. And personally, I think it is solely responsible for the drop in players of the arcade, to this day.
1 - The only and easiest way to find a game was always some form of a 'Most Popular' list. Popularity, in all its forms, has been an aspect of SC2 custom scene since the beginning. The fact you couldn't see if anyone was currently hosting or playing a map meant that you were never sure if you were going to wait forever to get enough people to play a game of a new map. With warcraft 3, because the map was open you KNEW there was a host, it was on the constantly updated list or it was bot hosted because it was popular. 2 - The Interface is LAGGY I mean seriously, it bugs me to this day the numerous, insurmountable amount of things that made getting into any form of starcraft 2 map painful. That painful loading thing on 'entering lobby', the the stupid vague little loading bar if you just wanted to join a game. It gave you NO SIGN of what was going on and what likelihood you had of getting game. Warcraft 3 there was always a nice mix of people who wanted to host a particular game and it advertising fairly. 3 - Shitty games and poplar games and unpopular games all had EQUAL advertising coverage. Personally I hated DOTA, because the community was so terribly elitist (and I was a noob), so I would go and seek the more unusual games where noobs or learning was more encouraged. Even if 30-50% of the custom list was DOTA, and 45% was the same small map pool, you knew there was a game you'd never played sitting on the list with at least ONE person in it waiting to get a game started. 4 - People shifted really quickly. Because maps that weren't hosted weren't advertised or listed, it meant that even shit awful maps or games got enough people to play quickly.
The actual quality of any said maps, players etc just DOES NOT MATTER. If someone hosted a popular custom map they tweaked so they would always win or had poirn, you quit and were back into something new or familiar in 10-20 minutes at most. At the moment, I'm writing this post whilst waiting for a Starjeweled game (a very popular official blizzard map) for about 30 minutes and the only clue as to when I'll get a pop is a stupid fucking blue loading thing and Star Jeweled at the top of the screen.
Don't blame the mapmakers, the players, the change in the community, the availability of new games or any of that. Blame the godawful inability to play ANYTHING in SC2 that isn't Nexus Wars reliably. I still don't have a Starjewelled game. Is the lobby bugged, is no one queuing? I DON'T KNOW, I HAVE NO CONTROL. STAR FUCKING JEWELLED. It's on top rated and often on top played and I CAN NOT PLAY IT.
This is why Starcraft 2 Custom Maps have failed. Removing any ability to advertise your game, any ability to join a game that is advertised or even popular games sometimes. I remember fondly playing weird awful new maps with the guy who had made it, seeking some feedback on what worked and what didn't. Oh and don't even mention open games, the third item on a small button on a shitty list that immediately opens on Most Played and Highest Rated, on a shitty menu system that seems to take 3 seconds to load any new part of the ui because...? Seriously, why is it EVERY PART of the User Interface has a fucking loading screen? Oh I tried to use 'open games'. Was stuck waiting forever for noone to join. No thanks, if open games was the only or at least the first thing to pop up, arcade might have made a small comeback for HoTS.
Sure the Warcraft 3 Doors and Chains etc took as long but they were 100% cooler and there was not loading screens for EVERYTHING like now.
PS. I gave up queuing for Starjewelled may as well play nexus wars, at least I can get a game of that going.
@Bibendus: Go
I still don't see how you will get a simpler editor and at the same time be able to modify so many things that you couldn't manipulate with war3 editor. Unless you want all these removed. I also loved to make things in no time but now you can do so many things with a model and that means also the actors it's not just browsing the MDX file like it is in war3. I am still for simplyfing the SC2 editor and making things with less fields and pages, but there is no way it will get as easy as War3's. The mess came also when they decided the Advanced fields to actually be now Basic, and whatever you select you see a lot more fields than you did when you could choose between Basic and Advanced, this kind of made a bigger mess to anyone who hasn't started from 2010.
I agree about War3 having more ingame models, but the game may have increased with like 1GB, then again why not, since SC2 is the new Warcraft as well, who ever cares about War4 coming in X years... Well this is Starcraft, the models in war3 - Creeps were there cause Melee had them, now SC has no creeps, thus no models.
You know, they could just make some Warcraft 4 Mod, like what CS was to Half Life, where you get War 4 with this engine and there to add all Medieval models.
@Eimtr: Go I'm not saying they should had dumbed it down, as it was at the beginning, the data editor just scared a lot people. They improved few things later on but it was already too late... something like
- Basic/Advanced fields not enabled by default
- Low amount of fields help tooltips
- No tutorials
- No wizards
Another issue was that people coming from WC3 wanted some basic features like inventory/leveling system that are harder to implement in SC2.
That's probably the main reason for the low amount of SC2 RPGs compared to WC3.
For those of you saying the popularity system is flawed... Shut up. A friend of mine recently spent 2 weeks designing a map. Is it a good, well designed map? No. Is it fun absolutely. It's just a simple poker tower defense. He might be a great map maker in general but two weeks for anyone would probably lead to a similar level of completion.
But on to the point. His map made it to the 2ND page in week 1. I know it recently reached the first page as well. But the point is if your map is fun and easy to learn than you can easily make page 1. So no it's not the system it's the players and the programmers.
@JacktheArcher: Go Depends on what type of map you make for the popularity system....
Any real competitive real map will fail on the current system.
@JacktheArcher: Go
Jack you are forgetting a major issue. So is Eitmr (who appears to be on the wrong website entirely).
This system you are referring to that isn't at fault was only implemented around last November, 2012.
That means the last parts of 2010 went by, 2011 blew completely and almost all of 2012 before anything useful was done. And if you count WoL Beta where the potential flaws were already being pointed out by some you find yourself with roughly 2 solid years of Blizzard not given a rats *. Whatever excuse you can make on behalf of Blizzard does no hold when you count that they had 2 solid years to fix it.
90% of all map development was tried before 1.5 came out. Most of the mappers had already gone before 1.5 came out. No I'm not saying one of the issues you guys are claiming may have not cropped up at some point even it if was fix. My point is the community nor the mod makers were even given the chance to fail.
Hey don't talk to me like that. I have been with SCBW editor in the 97-99 when some of you guys haven't even started using PC, Empire Earth editor, War 2 editor, War3 editor 2003-2010, SC2 editor since beta, I have a good idea what the problems you talk about in the editor are, I am sure you haven't even started mapping in those very old years. I do not play other games, I am either in melee or the editor. But I will not talk about Arcade problems, since I said in the first post, I am not much aware what problems are still ongoing.
Blizz could somehow unite lots of the things they added like Models+Actors in one or even the very same segment of a unit rather than a separate section, Abilities+Buttons+Behaviors+Effects in another, or all that to be under the same line of a Unit, all as data like war3 was. Ok whatever.
@FockeWulf: Go
Ok I agree with you that it took to long to get here. I was really just saying that all the complaints now really don't hold ground very well.
@Hookah604: Go
What do you mean by that? Many games are competitive.
@Eimtr: Go
I truly hope that never happens. If they try and simplify it I think I'd cry. The data editor is well organized and isn't as hard as people make it sound. It definitely takes getting used to but it's effective and is easy once you get the idea.
Hi, been reading up on this for awhile, and I'm sort of curious if we could simply copy paste all comments made here and just paste them up on the site every couple months periodically in a special woe is me forum section. Nothing here is new, blizz won't be reading it, it is the same song and dance as always when discussing the popularity/arcade system. Save everyone a lot of hassle to just paste this discussion every time rather than like this. All it does is scare newcomers who might turn this shit around anyways, it is the same every time and not helpful to anyone.