I was doing a research about why Tower Defense maps are the most played maps on Battle.net, and I guess I found my answers on Raph Koster’s book “A Theory of Fun In Game Design.”
Let’s start by the definition of fun. According to Koster, “fun” is the effect of endorphins being released into our brain because we learned something or master a task. Therefore, everything that is fun is exercising our brain by teaching some life skills in a very abstract way. So abstract that most of the time we don’t even notice we’re learning, which make games very good teachers.
Yes, TDs teach. They teach about different pathways causing different effects, they teach math such as how much is enough to prevent the next attack that will be slightly stronger, they teach how to predict events, they teach about projecting power, quantification, effects of explosions, notions of space, etc.
However, most of the TDs lessons about life are primitive. Our specie evolved along the time. We live in a modern society, and so games should teach more about things we commonly need today. And most of us already learned all the lessons a TD could teach us by playing it a lot during Starcraft or Warcraft 3. So, today, Tower Defense games suck because they are obsolete.
Now quoting Koster’s, he asks “why the most popular games are the ones that teach obsolete skills while the more sophisticated ones that teach subtler skills tend to reach smaller markets.” He then, gives the answer that we live mostly in the unconscious, so we tend to play games that require less conscious with “often irrelevant challenges because, frankly, it’s easier.”
To conclude, I don’t think fun is the best word to describe a Tower Defense game. I’d say TDs are fonne, which means “fool” in Middle English. So, if you're making a TD, at LEAST try to add some twist on it, please!
On a side note, this is why I disagree with sorting maps by popularity or by rating (Up&Coming and HotS); it promotes the “easy” challenges and hide the harder ones that requires some painful learning. However, this painful learning is a pre-requisite for innovation because every new genre requires some additional thinking. Luckily, we had on Starcraft 1 and Warcraft 3 a system that pretty much forced players to learn new games. As a consequence, new genres like DoTa and TDs were able to be popular in the first place.
Rodrigo making a TD would just be amazing... does he have the balls to do so though? :P
Last TD I made was for War3 when I was 14-15 years old, and you had to type words to kill the units (Word Tower Defense). Towers were there more to just slow them down. And sorry to disappoint, but yeah, I have no balls for another TD :P
Why would you love to be annoying? It just makes you look like an idiot.
What about who makes a copy of a tower defense and opens a thread talking about how highly popular his map is? At least my thread is constructive. It investigates the issue and presents a conclusion. If you don't agree with me, then present a counter-argument as a civilized man or leave this thread quietly before I join your debate about who is the real idiot. A debate I'm politely trying to refuse.
Look, I've really enjoyed the wild and unique maps you've come up with. Nexus Word Wars in particular has a special place in my heart. Your promo videos are amazing. You're a creative genius.
But for the love of god, stop trying to blame ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING OTHER THAN YOURSELF for the fact that your maps aren't sticking to the front page. You're just embarrassing yourself at this point - and a guy as brilliant as you deserves better.
I respect the fact that you innovate. Unlike most people who cry about the pop system, you also make a really legitimate effort to get the word out about your maps. Your work is polished and fun. I can totally appreciate that you're frustrated about your maps essentially failing.
It's not the pop system that's holding you back: Nexus Word Wars was front page for a while - being pop wiped isn't what kept it from getting back up there. Sorry. And again I loved this map personally - but I can still accept that it wasn't mainstream enough to *stay* popular.
It's not the popularity of "dumb maps" that's holding you back. Calling those maps dumb, and implying that their makers are dumb, does succeed in making you look like a royal ass though. Complexity =/= Depth.
You need to accept the fact that people are not playing your maps simply because something else is doing a better job of grabbing/holding their attention, and then you need to do something about it.
Believe me, Karawasa and I both fell into the trap of blaming Squadron's success for us slipping in NA for a while. "Squadron's so bad. Why are they so popular?" was our thought. But the community doesn't care what I think is bad any more than they care what you think is bad. No matter how many threads you post on here saying it, you're not going to change their minds.
All you can do is hit the drawing board again and try to figure out where you're falling short. Jump into each of the top 10 maps on the list, play a game, and ask people "why do you play this map?". Keep those answers in mind when working on your next project, because unless you're making games for yourself, you should probably be making them for your audience =P
But for the love of god, stop trying to blame ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING OTHER THAN YOURSELF for the fact that your maps aren't sticking to the front page. You're just embarrassing yourself at this point - and a guy as brilliant as you deserves better.
First, why are you yelling at me?
Second, who said I am complaining? I'm quoting a book. Did you actually read my thread?
Third, who said I care that my maps aren't popular? You're missing the whole point. I'm not even talking about my maps at all. This has nothing to do with the popularity system. I'm just making an argument of why TDs are popular (not because of the popularity system, but in general).
And thank you for liking my maps.
On a side note: Now every thread I open someone has to say that I'm mad because my maps aren't popular? Seriously? Can't I just open threads that are NOT related at all with my maps? If you're thinking that I opened this thread with a deep feeling of anger inside me, you're completly wrong. It was a deep feeling of learning, because I was reading the book, found it interesting, and decided to make a thread about it to not only share what I had learned with the community, but to also not forget what I had learned. And of course, to debate, because I love Debatessss.
...But hey, that's cool. You just keep pretending like you have no idea what I'm talking about.
Oh, and to answer your initial question, I'm 'yelling' because I'm frustrated that someone I've long held a tremendous amount of respect for is stubbornly continuing to make a complete ass of himself one thread after another.
I appreciate that you're trying to be constructive with MotW. I hope it works out. But if it doesn't, if the groundhog sees his shadow and NHW sinks like a stone when it's featured on MotW, are we going to be subjected to 6 more weeks of threads about how the system is broken?
On a side note:
Now every thread I open someone has to say that I'm mad because my maps aren't popular? Seriously? Can't I just open threads that are NOT related at all with my maps? If you're thinking that I opened this thread with a deep feeling of anger inside me, you're completly wrong. It was a deep feeling of learning, because I was reading the book, found it interesting, and decided to make a thread about it to not only share what I had learned with the community, but to also not forget what I had learned. And of course, to debate, because I love Debatessss.
I'm no expert on debates, but I'm pretty sure that an ad hominem dig at a specific map genre and everyone who works on maps in that genre probably isn't the way to kick off a good constructive discussion. Even your addendum at the end is another underscore about why you hate the pop system.
If I'm wrong and your intentions are purely intellectual...then hey, awesome. But again, have you considered the perspective of your audience? Obviously I'm not the only one who's taking your posts this way.
I do agree that maps should not be sorted by rating. The average SC2 custom map player is not mature enough to rate maps.
when the %*&# did we get ice cream?!!
No, but seriously, when did WE get to rate maps? (Dont count 'fun or not', because that is random placement)
Blizz is adding a lot more variety in the custom map listing soon tho, so im excited.
Rodrigo, the average quality of your posts are starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel. People are "attacking" you because you are, likewise, attacking everything around you. "I don't like this, I don't like that, this thing over here sucks because that other guy over there said it was cool when in fact I totally proved it sucks and here are 15 threads why."
If you had any ground to stand on people would be supporting you. TDs do not suck and I will gladly debate with you until the end of time that you have no valid points. There are certainly maps in the TD genre that are bad, but the genre itself is just fine. There is a reason why it is one of the most widespread genres ever. PC mods, Flash games, phone apps, console games, TDs are everywhere.
I've already said this to you once but apparently it needs to be said again: shape up or shut up.
If you don't stop rampaging about the forums for no apparent reason other than to bash Blizzard and other members of the community you're eventually going to get the boot. I'm all for being incredibly active, but I have yet to see one of your recently created threads NOT wind its way to flaming or the popularity system.
Believe me, Karawasa and I both fell into the trap of blaming Squadron's success for us slipping in NA for a while. "Squadron's so bad. Why are they so popular?" was our thought. But the community doesn't care what I think is bad any more than they care what you think is bad. No matter how many threads you post on here saying it, you're not going to change their minds.
We are working on adding new dimensions to our game. This was motivated primarily by the "content consumption" we experienced but also due to the continued success of Squadron over us. A realization on the nature of the BNET audience is far more realistic and practical than blaming others. Already, our work on adding brand new dimensions has helped us a lot. Not just in popularity, but in making a better overall game.
Vexel, Chi, Rod is complimenting you guys. Obviously he doesn't mean your TDs, just squad's TD because that's the #1 map. Vexal TD and Elemental aren't that popular, thus they are the fun map as oppose to the fonne Squad map. That's the logic behind Koster, no? Otherwise it would make no sense to have non-TD maps that are not in page 1.
@RodrigoAlves: Go
In the context of all your recent threads, we get a fairly clear picture of your motives
...But hey, that's cool. You just keep pretending like you have no idea what I'm talking about.
Look, I know I've complained about the pop sys in a lot of threads, but this thread is only intellectual. It has nothing to do with my maps or the popularity system. So, don't be rude by saying that I am "pretending" because in no moment I said I have no idea what you're talking about. I know what you're talking about, and I said that no, I'm not complaining. This thread is about sharing something I learned about what makes a TD popular. If you see any complains or hate on this thread, it's only in your eyes.
And the Map of the Week also is just something I did for the community. I don't care about my maps anymore, as I said, I stopped map-making. Your comment about it was very aggressive.
I've already said this to you once but apparently it needs to be said again: shape up or shut up.
If you don't stop rampaging about the forums for no apparent reason other than to bash Blizzard and other members of the community you're eventually going to get the boot. I'm all for being incredibly active, but I have yet to see one of your recently created threads NOT wind its way to flaming or the popularity system.
Oh god. Another one... I will repeat the same thing again: I AM NOT BASHING BLIZZARD NOR TALKING ABOUT THE POPULARITY SYSTEM. You're the one rampaging by asking me to shut up when the only thing I'm trying to do is to share an intellectual knowledge. Please. I came here with a peaceful idea to share something cool I read and you guyz just bash me and ask me to shut up. Alright. I guess that's what I should do.
Look, I know I've complained about the pop sys in a lot of threads, but this thread is only intellectual. It has nothing to do with my maps or the popularity system. So, don't be rude by saying that I am "pretending" because in no moment I said I have no idea what you're talking about. I know what you're talking about, and I said that no, I'm not complaining. This thread is about sharing something I learned about what makes a TD popular. If you see any complains or hate on this thread, it's only in your eyes.
You just said "Tower Defense games suck because they are obsolete", pretty much writing off an entire genera as crap just because you personally don't like it. Lots of people do like TDs however. In life people are not always going to share you interests, this doesn't make them stupid or wrong.
People on this site are constantly writing of TD's and tugs as boring and easy to make and complaining that they are popular, but they are popular because people like them and generally want a change from the fast paced micro of melee.
A lot of people complain about the childishness of the people playing starcarft, and its true mainly because there are a lot of children playing it, but the childishness I see here is getting obscene. The popularity system is annoying because its hard to get your map played but the criticism of entire genres is ridiculous and makes you appear arrogant and stupid.
Vexel's comment about the maturity of battle.net players is a perfect example of this.
I was doing a research about why Tower Defense maps are the most played maps on Battle.net, and I guess I found my answers on Raph Koster’s book “A Theory of Fun In Game Design.”
Let’s start by the definition of fun. According to Koster, “fun” is the effect of endorphins being released into our brain because we learned something or master a task. Therefore, everything that is fun is exercising our brain by teaching some life skills in a very abstract way. So abstract that most of the time we don’t even notice we’re learning, which make games very good teachers.
Yes, TDs teach. They teach about different pathways causing different effects, they teach math such as how much is enough to prevent the next attack that will be slightly stronger, they teach how to predict events, they teach about projecting power, quantification, effects of explosions, notions of space, etc.
However, most of the TDs lessons about life are primitive. Our specie evolved along the time. We live in a modern society, and so games should teach more about things we commonly need today. And most of us already learned all the lessons a TD could teach us by playing it a lot during Starcraft or Warcraft 3. So, today, Tower Defense games suck because they are obsolete.
Now quoting Koster’s, he asks “why the most popular games are the ones that teach obsolete skills while the more sophisticated ones that teach subtler skills tend to reach smaller markets.” He then, gives the answer that we live mostly in the unconscious, so we tend to play games that require less conscious with “often irrelevant challenges because, frankly, it’s easier.”
To conclude, I don’t think fun is the best word to describe a Tower Defense game. I’d say TDs are fonne, which means “fool” in Middle English. So, if you're making a TD, at LEAST try to add some twist on it, please!
On a side note, this is why I disagree with sorting maps by popularity or by rating (Up&Coming and HotS); it promotes the “easy” challenges and hide the harder ones that requires some painful learning. However, this painful learning is a pre-requisite for innovation because every new genre requires some additional thinking. Luckily, we had on Starcraft 1 and Warcraft 3 a system that pretty much forced players to learn new games. As a consequence, new genres like DoTa and TDs were able to be popular in the first place.
@RodrigoAlves: Go
Rod rather then waste your time writing garbage.
Why dont you take a serious shot at a td?
Who knows you might actually make something people want to play for once....
+10 likes
Rodrigo making a TD would just be amazing... does he have the balls to do so though? :P
Last TD I made was for War3 when I was 14-15 years old, and you had to type words to kill the units (Word Tower Defense). Towers were there more to just slow them down. And sorry to disappoint, but yeah, I have no balls for another TD :P
@RodrigoAlves: Go
Why do you go out of your way to be as annoying as possible, then complain about everyone's reactions?
I guess I just love to annoy TD makers like you. :)
But seriously, I'm here to speak the truth.
Fixed that for you ;)
@RodrigoAlves: Go
Why would you love to be annoying? It just makes you look like an idiot.
What about who makes a copy of a tower defense and opens a thread talking about how highly popular his map is? At least my thread is constructive. It investigates the issue and presents a conclusion. If you don't agree with me, then present a counter-argument as a civilized man or leave this thread quietly before I join your debate about who is the real idiot. A debate I'm politely trying to refuse.
Dude, Rodrigo...
Look, I've really enjoyed the wild and unique maps you've come up with. Nexus Word Wars in particular has a special place in my heart. Your promo videos are amazing. You're a creative genius.
But for the love of god, stop trying to blame ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING OTHER THAN YOURSELF for the fact that your maps aren't sticking to the front page. You're just embarrassing yourself at this point - and a guy as brilliant as you deserves better.
I respect the fact that you innovate. Unlike most people who cry about the pop system, you also make a really legitimate effort to get the word out about your maps. Your work is polished and fun. I can totally appreciate that you're frustrated about your maps essentially failing.
It's not the pop system that's holding you back: Nexus Word Wars was front page for a while - being pop wiped isn't what kept it from getting back up there. Sorry. And again I loved this map personally - but I can still accept that it wasn't mainstream enough to *stay* popular.
It's not the popularity of "dumb maps" that's holding you back. Calling those maps dumb, and implying that their makers are dumb, does succeed in making you look like a royal ass though. Complexity =/= Depth.
You need to accept the fact that people are not playing your maps simply because something else is doing a better job of grabbing/holding their attention, and then you need to do something about it.
Believe me, Karawasa and I both fell into the trap of blaming Squadron's success for us slipping in NA for a while. "Squadron's so bad. Why are they so popular?" was our thought. But the community doesn't care what I think is bad any more than they care what you think is bad. No matter how many threads you post on here saying it, you're not going to change their minds.
All you can do is hit the drawing board again and try to figure out where you're falling short. Jump into each of the top 10 maps on the list, play a game, and ask people "why do you play this map?". Keep those answers in mind when working on your next project, because unless you're making games for yourself, you should probably be making them for your audience =P
@RodrigoAlves: Go
I don't care what you have to say at all, and I'm not interested in debating with you. I just wish you would stop posting.
Fix the incomplete sentence please. Only annoying thing in this whole thread.
First, why are you yelling at me?
Second, who said I am complaining? I'm quoting a book. Did you actually read my thread?
Third, who said I care that my maps aren't popular? You're missing the whole point. I'm not even talking about my maps at all. This has nothing to do with the popularity system. I'm just making an argument of why TDs are popular (not because of the popularity system, but in general).
And thank you for liking my maps.
On a side note:
Now every thread I open someone has to say that I'm mad because my maps aren't popular? Seriously? Can't I just open threads that are NOT related at all with my maps? If you're thinking that I opened this thread with a deep feeling of anger inside me, you're completly wrong. It was a deep feeling of learning, because I was reading the book, found it interesting, and decided to make a thread about it to not only share what I had learned with the community, but to also not forget what I had learned. And of course, to debate, because I love Debatessss.
@RodrigoAlves: Go
In the context of this thread, you're trying to make an argument about TDs.
In the context of all your recent threads, we get a fairly clear picture of your motives-
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/general-chat/23976-wait-for-the-good-or-play-the-bad/
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/general-chat/23985-1-year-of-starcraft-what-blizz-brought-to-us/
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/general-chat/23952-blizzard-comment-about-talented-mappers/
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/general-chat/23077-screenshot-little-jimmys-battle-net/
And obviously you don't care about popularity. If you did you might try to do something like this-
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/general-chat/24061-map-of-the-week-rodrigos-idea/ http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/general-chat/24201-map-of-the-week-need-more-members/
...But hey, that's cool. You just keep pretending like you have no idea what I'm talking about.
Oh, and to answer your initial question, I'm 'yelling' because I'm frustrated that someone I've long held a tremendous amount of respect for is stubbornly continuing to make a complete ass of himself one thread after another.
I appreciate that you're trying to be constructive with MotW. I hope it works out. But if it doesn't, if the groundhog sees his shadow and NHW sinks like a stone when it's featured on MotW, are we going to be subjected to 6 more weeks of threads about how the system is broken?
EDIT
Thank you for making them. They've been enjoyable in my experience.
I'm no expert on debates, but I'm pretty sure that an ad hominem dig at a specific map genre and everyone who works on maps in that genre probably isn't the way to kick off a good constructive discussion. Even your addendum at the end is another underscore about why you hate the pop system.
If I'm wrong and your intentions are purely intellectual...then hey, awesome. But again, have you considered the perspective of your audience? Obviously I'm not the only one who's taking your posts this way.
I do agree that maps should not be sorted by rating. The average SC2 custom map player is not mature enough to rate maps.
when the %*&# did we get ice cream?!!
No, but seriously, when did WE get to rate maps? (Dont count 'fun or not', because that is random placement) Blizz is adding a lot more variety in the custom map listing soon tho, so im excited.
Rodrigo, the average quality of your posts are starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel. People are "attacking" you because you are, likewise, attacking everything around you. "I don't like this, I don't like that, this thing over here sucks because that other guy over there said it was cool when in fact I totally proved it sucks and here are 15 threads why."
If you had any ground to stand on people would be supporting you. TDs do not suck and I will gladly debate with you until the end of time that you have no valid points. There are certainly maps in the TD genre that are bad, but the genre itself is just fine. There is a reason why it is one of the most widespread genres ever. PC mods, Flash games, phone apps, console games, TDs are everywhere.
I've already said this to you once but apparently it needs to be said again: shape up or shut up.
If you don't stop rampaging about the forums for no apparent reason other than to bash Blizzard and other members of the community you're eventually going to get the boot. I'm all for being incredibly active, but I have yet to see one of your recently created threads NOT wind its way to flaming or the popularity system.
We are working on adding new dimensions to our game. This was motivated primarily by the "content consumption" we experienced but also due to the continued success of Squadron over us. A realization on the nature of the BNET audience is far more realistic and practical than blaming others. Already, our work on adding brand new dimensions has helped us a lot. Not just in popularity, but in making a better overall game.
Vexel, Chi, Rod is complimenting you guys. Obviously he doesn't mean your TDs, just squad's TD because that's the #1 map. Vexal TD and Elemental aren't that popular, thus they are the fun map as oppose to the fonne Squad map. That's the logic behind Koster, no? Otherwise it would make no sense to have non-TD maps that are not in page 1.
Look, I know I've complained about the pop sys in a lot of threads, but this thread is only intellectual. It has nothing to do with my maps or the popularity system. So, don't be rude by saying that I am "pretending" because in no moment I said I have no idea what you're talking about. I know what you're talking about, and I said that no, I'm not complaining. This thread is about sharing something I learned about what makes a TD popular. If you see any complains or hate on this thread, it's only in your eyes.
And the Map of the Week also is just something I did for the community. I don't care about my maps anymore, as I said, I stopped map-making. Your comment about it was very aggressive.
Oh god. Another one... I will repeat the same thing again: I AM NOT BASHING BLIZZARD NOR TALKING ABOUT THE POPULARITY SYSTEM. You're the one rampaging by asking me to shut up when the only thing I'm trying to do is to share an intellectual knowledge. Please. I came here with a peaceful idea to share something cool I read and you guyz just bash me and ask me to shut up. Alright. I guess that's what I should do.
You just said "Tower Defense games suck because they are obsolete", pretty much writing off an entire genera as crap just because you personally don't like it. Lots of people do like TDs however. In life people are not always going to share you interests, this doesn't make them stupid or wrong.
People on this site are constantly writing of TD's and tugs as boring and easy to make and complaining that they are popular, but they are popular because people like them and generally want a change from the fast paced micro of melee.
A lot of people complain about the childishness of the people playing starcarft, and its true mainly because there are a lot of children playing it, but the childishness I see here is getting obscene. The popularity system is annoying because its hard to get your map played but the criticism of entire genres is ridiculous and makes you appear arrogant and stupid.
Vexel's comment about the maturity of battle.net players is a perfect example of this.