I bought the expansion last november and I hoped that this purchase will largely improve the editor about some lacks (like some suggestions that we add on the official forum, which the link is below), but I was disappointed about the little upgrades that was made just before the release. These upgrades were just only for some adjustement, like the option 'lock tab' in the data editor, which not really work (you cannot move this tab once it is locked, but you can put other tab in front of it?). If I compare with the Warcraft 3 editor, when I installed the expansion of this game, the differences between the 2 editors was like day and night about all the improvements made.
I must honestly say that I bought the expansion primary for the possible improvements of the editor and I was hit by the reality. So I ask this question : am I the only person who bought HOTS for the editor?
You're not going to like this. You didn't have to buy the expansion to get the improvements and new features :] I didn't buy it and I've got exactly the same editor as you. The only difference is the access to the new tilesets, models, doodads, etc that came with HotS. If you bought the expansion just for the editor, then you just paid 40$ for a big editor DLC.
Oh, and the big features came before HotS was launched: cinematic editor, AI module, all the little fixes and upgrades.
Quote:
am I the only person who bought HOTS for the editor
You might be one of the few. Don't worry, I bought WoL just for the editor :P
You have the exact same Editor if you just buy WoL, so your point is somewhat true but I personally think that's a very positive thing and not negative at all, it's just unfortunate for you because you didn't know about that before your purchased HotS.
They added a ton of stuff for the Editor prior to (and for) HotS (Cutscene Editor, AI Editor, UI Editor, tons of new Data values) and they constantly added features during WoL in the last couple of years as well. I don't know how it went for Warcraft 3 though, so I don't have a comparison. But I can't really share the disappointment.
Also note that the thread you have linked is 5 months old, so you can't really expect all of the suggestions implemented yet, especially seeing that the last couple of months were probably heavy crunch time with a lot of polishing and bug fixing going on.
They added a ton of stuff for the Editor prior to (and for) HotS (Cutscene Editor, AI Editor, UI Editor, tons of new Data values) and they constantly added features during WoL in the last couple of years as well. I don't know how it went for Warcraft 3 though, so I don't have a comparison. But I can't really share the disappointment.
You're right man. Almost all of my time in the editor goes to the data and trigger panel, so this is maybe why I' ve not founded many changes.Maybe my expectations were just too high...
It's sure that I can say many positive points about the expansion, like the campaign and new units strategies, but I'm still disappointed about the fact that we cannot put HOTS assets in WOL dependencies map. As I said in the other thread, they could put, at least, all the assets about the expansion (I only talk about models, sounds and images), so everybody could use them in their custom map without having problem with Blizzard.
I keep hearing about improvements to the editor, but the only part that needs them is the terrain editor.... if you cant do something in data or triggers then you lack understanding and skill and should practice more :P.e
You have the exact same Editor if you just buy WoL, so your point is somewhat true but I personally think that's a very positive thing and not negative at all, it's just unfortunate for you because you didn't know about that before your purchased HotS.
They added a ton of stuff for the Editor prior to (and for) HotS (Cutscene Editor, AI Editor, UI Editor, tons of new Data values) and they constantly added features during WoL in the last couple of years as well. I don't know how it went for Warcraft 3 though, so I don't have a comparison. But I can't really share the disappointment.
Also note that the thread you have linked is 5 months old, so you can't really expect all of the suggestions implemented yet, especially seeing that the last couple of months were probably heavy crunch time with a lot of polishing and bug fixing going on.
I started map making from SC1 so I know WC3 World Edit only get twice improvment in its life span. One is when TFT comes out, the other is they add a datatable system to replace the game cache system in order to fix a very big exploit in script.
So compared to WC3, StarCraft II Editor really get much more loves from Blizzard.
Still the terrain editor is VERY horrible, and no one ever complains about it :(.... The data editor is REALLY nice if you have past a 10th grade education and can remember your vocabulary, if you can do that you already know the majority of the fields meanings :P.
I keep hearing about improvements to the editor, but the only part that needs them is the terrain editor.... if you cant do something in data or triggers then you lack understanding and skill and should practice more :P.e
I don't really share your opinion. If you tried to do things with items (like moving an item from a container to another) with the trigger panel, you could say that even if this panel is enough complete, it still needs improvements. Another example that I said on the Blizzard forum : In the data panel, you can put your new units in a new race, but you cannot sort your abilities, behaviors, effects, etc. with this new race. Another idea : Blizzard could add triggers and datas to modify the terrain texture in-game, otherwise to add different types of creep. That was the kind of things that I hoped with the expansion... But I surely dream :P
I started map making from SC1 so I know WC3 World Edit only get twice improvment in its life span. One is when TFT comes out, the other is they add a datatable system to replace the game cache system in order to fix a very big exploit in script.
So compared to WC3, StarCraft II Editor really get much more loves from Blizzard.
It's sure that my example about the WC3 editor's improvement is a little bit false, because, as you said, Blizzard never done update for it with patches. I just thought that with the HOTS expansion, Blizzard will get a + for the editor, like WC3.
I'm that one guy who thinks WoL was better than HotS.
If you're talking about the editor, WOL and HOTS are almost similar, except that HOTS have more datas and assets, like a more complex mod in the editor.
If no one has ever complained about it, how can it be horrible then? I don't see anything wrong with it.
Oh lord... dont make me start. Here I will quick list a few things
Terrain Painting, you cant stretch create lines, or anything of the sort.
Convert From Legacy sucks ass neither the terrain nor the data works correctly.
Water, It fails horribly.
Terrain Cliffs, theres only +2...
Terrain Texture sets, WTF, why not allow us to use all of them at once. or atleast up the limit to 20-30
You cant connect 2 different types of cliffs on the same level
You cant tilt doodads
You cant tilt the piss poor water, and its a flat surface rather then physics based so making streams with it is very difficult and requires MANY doodads.
There is much much much more, but I am tired of typing.
1. you can create new creep its a bit difficult but completely possible with a work around.
2. You cant change texture sets during game due to Engine limitations, I have asked for this myself sorry.
3. Items moving between containers is possible, you just destroy the one in the first container and re-create it in the other. :P its not difficult just kinda dumb that it works that way, also you can always write custom code.
also dont sort abilities and units by race -_- thats stupid, Just add a prefix to it all, thats what I do and I never misplace my data for example.
(prefix==Hero-) Beef O matic then all of his abilities are labelled (prefix == Beef -) abilityname same for all data pertaining to him if it pertains to multiple heroes then you would put Hero - or whatever you wish to use :P. sorting and organizing is easy just sort by name and use prefix.
Yeah my example with races was not very good :) , but if my item have a cooldown with 15 seconds remaining I move this item to another container, your technic will fail, no (like using a morph ability at the place of destroying and creating a new unit)?
And you make me think about the worst thing in the editor for me, you cannot put and item who have an inventory into a container. For example, if I want to make a marine item (my marine have an inventory) in the container of a tank (like a pilot), in-game it fails, otherwise it just writes error.
It's sure that I can say many positive points about the expansion, like the campaign and new units strategies, but I'm still disappointed about the fact that we cannot put HOTS assets in WOL dependencies map. As I said in the other thread, they could put, at least, all the assets about the expansion (I only talk about models, sounds and images), so everybody could use them in their custom map without having problem with Blizzard.
This is actually the one thing about HOTS and what it provides that makes sense. If they'd allow HOTS assets to be used in WoL, then literally the ONLY thing the expansion would add that mappers couldn't re-make in a couple of months are the cinematics and having a ladder for melee-with-HOTS-units (since people would undoubtedly make custom HOTS melee maps that work in WoL).
Terrain Painting, you cant stretch create lines, or anything of the sort.
Convert From Legacy sucks ass neither the terrain nor the data works correctly.
Water, It fails horribly.
Terrain Cliffs, theres only +2...
Terrain Texture sets, WTF, why not allow us to use all of them at once. or atleast up the limit to 20-30
You cant connect 2 different types of cliffs on the same level
You cant tilt doodads
You cant tilt the piss poor water, and its a flat surface rather then physics based so making streams with it is very difficult and requires MANY doodads.
There is much much much more, but I am tired of typing.
While, aside from what Telthalion said, all of these are things that could be improved, I wouldn't call the terrain editor horrible over it.
Terrain painting lines is barely an issue with decals existing, and water works the way it does for a reason. If you compare it to the WC3 editor, you'll see that it was treated as an elaborate texture there. This made it easier to place, but didn't give us half the options we have now (50 different types of fucking lighting settings, for one). The reason for this is likely because water was never meant as an integral part of the StarCraft universe in the way it was in WarCraft III; there you actually fight in rivers and such, in StarCraft II weather is always used as a background area for inaccessible terrain.
Really the only real complaints would be the cliff limit, the texture limit, and not being able to tilt doodads. The last one hampers a lot of creativity, but the first two are barely ever a real problem.
you mean site operations :P. its just a pain in the ass hah.
My point is out of the 4,5 whatever editors, the terrain side is the least developed :) and personally I think its the one that needs work done on it massively the data editor just needs tool-tips on everything -_-
you mean site operations :P. its just a pain in the ass hah.
My point is out of the 4,5 whatever editors, the terrain side is the least developed :) and personally I think its the one that needs work done on it massively the data editor just needs tool-tips on everything -_-
The Data Editor does have tooltips for a majority of data fields by now, at least for the common actor and effect types. Probably other common ones like Units, Models etc. too.
you mean site operations :P. its just a pain in the ass hah.
My point is out of the 4,5 whatever editors, the terrain side is the least developed :) and personally I think its the one that needs work done on it massively the data editor just needs tool-tips on everything -_-
That is something I can maybe agree with. Data and triggers definitely do seem ripe with possibilities, while some terraining functions are more limited than their WarCraft 3 equivalents. Especially tilting doodads should be in there. To non-terrainers here that doesn't sound like much (especially not since it can be done in the data editor), but think about this: a simple 'wooden table' doodad can be turned on its side to provide for a wooden wall. Several of these can in turn form a wooden cabin. This kind of creativity was the stuff anybody could come up with in WarCraft 3, and I've made entire constructs out of tilted doodads in mere minutes in that editor. In this one you're limited to really specific data editing that can't be done on the fly and in-game testing to see how a doodad looks. I can pick one random doodad and challenge you to a 'who can create something new out of just this one doodad' contest and win within a minute or two, while in the SC2 editor you'd need 10 minutes just to come up with something and another 50 of annoying testing to make it work.
Still the terrain editor is VERY horrible, and no one ever complains about it :(.... The data editor is REALLY nice if you have past a 10th grade education and can remember your vocabulary, if you can do that you already know the majority of the fields meanings :P.
Yeah, I do agree with that the terrain part is a setback for the editor.
The data & trigger is like 300x BETTER than the WC3 world editor, but the terrain part is even LESS than the world editor.
Just not sure why there are so many restrictions on the terrain part at the first place.(4 cliff levels, 8 textures, 2 cliff types etc)
Perhaps they started the whole project in a very early years, so these restrictions are needed for the performance. And these things are very hard to be changed since they are the basement of the engine.
I bought the expansion last november and I hoped that this purchase will largely improve the editor about some lacks (like some suggestions that we add on the official forum, which the link is below), but I was disappointed about the little upgrades that was made just before the release. These upgrades were just only for some adjustement, like the option 'lock tab' in the data editor, which not really work (you cannot move this tab once it is locked, but you can put other tab in front of it?). If I compare with the Warcraft 3 editor, when I installed the expansion of this game, the differences between the 2 editors was like day and night about all the improvements made.
I must honestly say that I bought the expansion primary for the possible improvements of the editor and I was hit by the reality. So I ask this question : am I the only person who bought HOTS for the editor?
Here is the link for the suggestions/improvements thread on the official forum : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6307501153?page=1.
You're not going to like this. You didn't have to buy the expansion to get the improvements and new features :] I didn't buy it and I've got exactly the same editor as you. The only difference is the access to the new tilesets, models, doodads, etc that came with HotS. If you bought the expansion just for the editor, then you just paid 40$ for a big editor DLC.
Oh, and the big features came before HotS was launched: cinematic editor, AI module, all the little fixes and upgrades.
You might be one of the few. Don't worry, I bought WoL just for the editor :P
You have the exact same Editor if you just buy WoL, so your point is somewhat true but I personally think that's a very positive thing and not negative at all, it's just unfortunate for you because you didn't know about that before your purchased HotS.
They added a ton of stuff for the Editor prior to (and for) HotS (Cutscene Editor, AI Editor, UI Editor, tons of new Data values) and they constantly added features during WoL in the last couple of years as well. I don't know how it went for Warcraft 3 though, so I don't have a comparison. But I can't really share the disappointment.
Also note that the thread you have linked is 5 months old, so you can't really expect all of the suggestions implemented yet, especially seeing that the last couple of months were probably heavy crunch time with a lot of polishing and bug fixing going on.
You're right man. Almost all of my time in the editor goes to the data and trigger panel, so this is maybe why I' ve not founded many changes.Maybe my expectations were just too high...
It's sure that I can say many positive points about the expansion, like the campaign and new units strategies, but I'm still disappointed about the fact that we cannot put HOTS assets in WOL dependencies map. As I said in the other thread, they could put, at least, all the assets about the expansion (I only talk about models, sounds and images), so everybody could use them in their custom map without having problem with Blizzard.
I keep hearing about improvements to the editor, but the only part that needs them is the terrain editor.... if you cant do something in data or triggers then you lack understanding and skill and should practice more :P.e
I started map making from SC1 so I know WC3 World Edit only get twice improvment in its life span. One is when TFT comes out, the other is they add a datatable system to replace the game cache system in order to fix a very big exploit in script.
So compared to WC3, StarCraft II Editor really get much more loves from Blizzard.
@Renee2islga: Go
Still the terrain editor is VERY horrible, and no one ever complains about it :(.... The data editor is REALLY nice if you have past a 10th grade education and can remember your vocabulary, if you can do that you already know the majority of the fields meanings :P.
If no one has ever complained about it, how can it be horrible then? I don't see anything wrong with it.
I'm that one guy who thinks WoL was better than HotS.
I don't really share your opinion. If you tried to do things with items (like moving an item from a container to another) with the trigger panel, you could say that even if this panel is enough complete, it still needs improvements. Another example that I said on the Blizzard forum : In the data panel, you can put your new units in a new race, but you cannot sort your abilities, behaviors, effects, etc. with this new race. Another idea : Blizzard could add triggers and datas to modify the terrain texture in-game, otherwise to add different types of creep. That was the kind of things that I hoped with the expansion... But I surely dream :P
It's sure that my example about the WC3 editor's improvement is a little bit false, because, as you said, Blizzard never done update for it with patches. I just thought that with the HOTS expansion, Blizzard will get a + for the editor, like WC3.
If you're talking about the editor, WOL and HOTS are almost similar, except that HOTS have more datas and assets, like a more complex mod in the editor.
Oh lord... dont make me start. Here I will quick list a few things
Terrain Painting, you cant stretch create lines, or anything of the sort.
Convert From Legacy sucks ass neither the terrain nor the data works correctly.
Water, It fails horribly.
Terrain Cliffs, theres only +2...
Terrain Texture sets, WTF, why not allow us to use all of them at once. or atleast up the limit to 20-30
You cant connect 2 different types of cliffs on the same level
You cant tilt doodads
You cant tilt the piss poor water, and its a flat surface rather then physics based so making streams with it is very difficult and requires MANY doodads.
There is much much much more, but I am tired of typing.
@tatatatate: Go
1. you can create new creep its a bit difficult but completely possible with a work around.
2. You cant change texture sets during game due to Engine limitations, I have asked for this myself sorry.
3. Items moving between containers is possible, you just destroy the one in the first container and re-create it in the other. :P its not difficult just kinda dumb that it works that way, also you can always write custom code.
also dont sort abilities and units by race -_- thats stupid, Just add a prefix to it all, thats what I do and I never misplace my data for example.
(prefix==Hero-) Beef O matic then all of his abilities are labelled (prefix == Beef -) abilityname same for all data pertaining to him if it pertains to multiple heroes then you would put Hero - or whatever you wish to use :P. sorting and organizing is easy just sort by name and use prefix.
Yeah my example with races was not very good :) , but if my item have a cooldown with 15 seconds remaining I move this item to another container, your technic will fail, no (like using a morph ability at the place of destroying and creating a new unit)?
And you make me think about the worst thing in the editor for me, you cannot put and item who have an inventory into a container. For example, if I want to make a marine item (my marine have an inventory) in the container of a tank (like a pilot), in-game it fails, otherwise it just writes error.
Yeah you can. Just have to enable it in your Tools -> Brush menu (or Shift I).
This is actually the one thing about HOTS and what it provides that makes sense. If they'd allow HOTS assets to be used in WoL, then literally the ONLY thing the expansion would add that mappers couldn't re-make in a couple of months are the cinematics and having a ladder for melee-with-HOTS-units (since people would undoubtedly make custom HOTS melee maps that work in WoL).
While, aside from what Telthalion said, all of these are things that could be improved, I wouldn't call the terrain editor horrible over it.
Terrain painting lines is barely an issue with decals existing, and water works the way it does for a reason. If you compare it to the WC3 editor, you'll see that it was treated as an elaborate texture there. This made it easier to place, but didn't give us half the options we have now (50 different types of fucking lighting settings, for one). The reason for this is likely because water was never meant as an integral part of the StarCraft universe in the way it was in WarCraft III; there you actually fight in rivers and such, in StarCraft II weather is always used as a background area for inaccessible terrain.
Really the only real complaints would be the cliff limit, the texture limit, and not being able to tilt doodads. The last one hampers a lot of creativity, but the first two are barely ever a real problem.
@Mozared: Go And if you really need to tilt a doodad you can use attachments to get it done.
@SoulFilcher: Go
you mean site operations :P. its just a pain in the ass hah.
My point is out of the 4,5 whatever editors, the terrain side is the least developed :) and personally I think its the one that needs work done on it massively the data editor just needs tool-tips on everything -_-
The Data Editor does have tooltips for a majority of data fields by now, at least for the common actor and effect types. Probably other common ones like Units, Models etc. too.
That is something I can maybe agree with. Data and triggers definitely do seem ripe with possibilities, while some terraining functions are more limited than their WarCraft 3 equivalents. Especially tilting doodads should be in there. To non-terrainers here that doesn't sound like much (especially not since it can be done in the data editor), but think about this: a simple 'wooden table' doodad can be turned on its side to provide for a wooden wall. Several of these can in turn form a wooden cabin. This kind of creativity was the stuff anybody could come up with in WarCraft 3, and I've made entire constructs out of tilted doodads in mere minutes in that editor. In this one you're limited to really specific data editing that can't be done on the fly and in-game testing to see how a doodad looks. I can pick one random doodad and challenge you to a 'who can create something new out of just this one doodad' contest and win within a minute or two, while in the SC2 editor you'd need 10 minutes just to come up with something and another 50 of annoying testing to make it work.
Yeah, I do agree with that the terrain part is a setback for the editor.
The data & trigger is like 300x BETTER than the WC3 world editor, but the terrain part is even LESS than the world editor.
Just not sure why there are so many restrictions on the terrain part at the first place.(4 cliff levels, 8 textures, 2 cliff types etc)
Perhaps they started the whole project in a very early years, so these restrictions are needed for the performance. And these things are very hard to be changed since they are the basement of the engine.