and if they truly didn't care about the arcade, where did they get the budget for rock the cabinet? For not caring, they spend an awful lot of money on it...
i'm sorry but this is hillarious :D. Using the pleb's workforce to fill the desolated arcade for 30 000$ is just the best deal in Blizzard's life LOL. And i even wasn't about to offend anyone i'm working as economist and this is exactly how executives think, sorry.
Are you kidding me? Rock the cabinet with 30k$ budget? Company which earns millions and millions $$$ on WOW and now on Hearthstone gives 30k$? It's the same as 1$(or may be even 1 cent) for me or for you.
True, it is not a ton of money in the grand scheme of things. I'll admit, the issue I think is the vast disconnect of southern California and the rest of the world. I live here, and 30 grand is... not much money, it won't get anything done, whereas 30 grand almost anywhere else is worth a years salary and can buy a lot of stuff. Won't pay a programmer for even half a year, if that. 30 grand will pay for a good coder for less then 3 months of work. For Blizzard to do anything, they have to spend a fair chunk of change.
You are totally correct that an executive probably sign off on it because they thought it was a good deal. Best guess would be Chris Sigaty since he is the one mostly SC2 oriented among the executives (at least he does a fair number of the SC2 interviews and events).
Back to the more immediate topic at hand... It is unfortunate that they will not release the fix immediately. I would hazard that this bug was unexpected/missed in testing, and they already had the next patch scheduled. So they are adding the fix into the next patch, rather then disrupt their schedule.
As for a workaround, has anyone discovered any reliable one?
I have to disagree about Unity / Unreal. I am a coder and I am right now on the editor of Starcraft 2 because I find it better and way easier to use in many ways. I can't say Unity or Unreal are better. They are different tools and they require much more work and knowledges to make an equivalent game, not only codes knowledge. Of course Starcraft 2 doesn't / won't allow me to buy my bread every day. While Unity / Unreal possibly could after something like 5 or 10 years of learning and work ( to be optimistic), and with risky financial investments xD
True, I'm also a coder, and I find SC2 a nice break from work, staring at raw code (Java/C/cplusplus mainly). This is why I added the caution about coding in games, as noted in your last sentence. Sadly, even coders leave programming altogether and employ their logic skills in more lucrative fields (usually finance).
Guys, could the fact, that you can circumvent this lobby bug, by joining a replay (one from the time before the recent patch) with 12 players, and play the map, without kicks,
be a hint in the right direction? Or give some clues at least?
The fact that the map itself loads and is playable through this "replay techinque", with the usual player size (over 8),
indicates that the problem is maybe not within the maps itself, but rather at a different moment during the starting up process, no?
Guys, could the fact, that you can circumvent this lobby bug, by joining a replay (one from the time before the recent patch) with 12 players, and play the map, without kicks, be a hint in the right direction? Or give some clues at least?
The fact that the map itself loads and is playable through this "replay techinque", with the usual player size (over 8), indicates that the problem is maybe not within the maps itself, but rather at a different moment during the starting up process, no?
This is certainly true. Its the Initialisation Process that craps out. If you get as far as see a single second of loading screen then the map will work (got past the initialisation bug). This is why changing map code itself won't fix, only the configuration components that affect the map initiation process (hence the focus on Game Attributes and Game Variants and Included dependencies ... all of which are setup during initialisation.)
Guys, don't forget, when you compare engines, to take into account the difference between a job for a company as an employee, and a desired work on your own passion. The latter may be a 12 hours a day of pure happiness and show insane rate of learning. The work as an employee may feel tough, and money here may matter more than the fun.
So, I can imagine a person who works for money in a zero coding related field, and codes on fucking asm or whatever after work. And another person, like Arcane, who codes at work and has fun in sc2 editor at free time. These two persons may not find common views on the better ways to make money and the better ways for hobby coding. But not because of the objective properties of the engines they use. They are just biased, they look from different positions, and have different passions. Hobbies tend to differ from the jobs, and the tools people use for hobbies tend to look better in their eyes.
Some people manage to merge a hobby and a work. So they have both alot of fun and alot of time (because they get payed). And in that case learning Unity to the nearly professional way would take about 2 years, not 5-10.
Yes you are right.
Actually it depends totally on the kind of game, and the ambitions pursued.
My estimation of 5-10 years comes from a personnal project, and I am quite perfectionnist. And my real job let me much free time nowadays.
But SC 2 provides :
- a full world / context
- many high quality 3D models which go well together
- numerous gameplay automated process (RTS oriented but which can do the job for RPG or even FSP too)
- automated process for move / paths / footprint (following my tests on Unity, it is not that easy on this one)
- operationnal and easily customizable graphic engine (and I think Unity provides many possibilities for that but it requires expert knowledges to get a professionnal visual result)
- A fully done UI
All of this require expert knowledges to be done the good way on Unity and Unreal, to get a professional result.
I don't know Unreal but people usually say that it is a few harder to use than Unity as it has still less automated process. I discover each day on Unity (as I still kind of study it) some extensions which can be bought to customize the graphic engine or automate some process. It is a big jungle. And it requires knowledge to be used the right way.
About the 3D models sold on the AssetStore, they don't fit all together to say the least. Almost each model / pack doesn't fit with anything else actually, even without speaking about the quality of them, which could often be disappointing. And they have to be bought. It is from this that I was speaking about risky financial invesments (pay a 3D graphic guy to make custom graphics).
Many people complain about the complexity of the editor of SC 2. But his complexity is on things that you have to create from scratch on Unity / Unreal. Abilities / hero level / behavior / effects, all that has to be fully done from scratch. And an other time, it requires expert knowledge to avoid the many traps there is on the way.
On the other hand, I am thinking about coding into SC2 (because I think that triggers are very usefull and powerfull, but very power greedy even for very simple task) but I don't know yet how / where I can code in his editor xD
after studying data for a long time i can say that its simplicity deceiving. It kind of make illusion that you working on much higher level, compared to raw code, but it is true only if you doing some simple things which data editor has presets for. For everything else there is a TON of pitfalls. It is because the way everything assembled is hidden from the user and you have to learn it by trial and error method. There are lot of scenarios which will make your head burn in flames just because you don't know the order in which actors associated with action are being created or effects executed or markers applied. And the point is it doesn't rly complicated it's just you can't go in the next room to Blizzard's software engineer and ask what the hell happening. While Blizzard's game designer can. This comes to a point where people want just to use triggers or scripting for everything just so system will be understandable :
On the other hand, I am thinking about coding into SC2
and there is a problem with that. A lot of things (mostly visuals, i.e. actors) will still require data objects to work. And some things such as action actors (placing impact on hitbox) just can't be simulated with triggers from what i know. The editor designed the way that forcing you to use data basicaly.
For example in data units doesn't actualy die while casting persistent effects. They just feign death so the death visuals and kill credits occur. But the reference on the caster of effect still exist until effect goes off. However if you fire periodic effects with triggers (create effect on unit from unit + timer) the reference of caster will be lost if caster dies. ETC, ETC. You'll have a hard times handle each of this data systems with triggers.
A little about money related thing. For me it is not acceptable when my work has a chance of not getting paid for (thats the opposite to a hobby thing). That's why the idea of arcade contests don't insipre me and ain't gonna take my ass from the couch, even though 3000-7000$ is a shitload of money for Ukraine nowadays. In my opinion the only good option for participation is if you already worked on something and could push it for a deadline. Otherwise (if you sacrifice your free time only trying to take 1-5 place) it's just the case when you being used by Blizzard to populate the arcade map list.
@abvdzh: Go
Yes the reverse engineering needed is the big problem of this editor.
I really regret that Blizzard doesn't work more on the editor. It is why I think that paid maps would have been fine (for the authors of course, but for the evolution of the editor too). But people have chosen the other way.
@houndofbaskerville: Go
Conspiracy theory ? I don't think so. They only reduced to the minimum possible the development of the editor, to be able to use it themselves to reach their goal, and to allow mapmakers to have fun, while not exploding the budget.
@abvdzh: Go Yes the reverse engineering needed is the big problem of this editor. I really regret that Blizzard doesn't work more on the editor. It is why I think that paid maps would have been fine (for the authors of course, but for the evolution of the editor too). But people have chosen the other way.
I feels rage and injustice when streamer on twitch gets huge donations for several hours and it's "normal". But when developer spending hundreds(thousands) of hours on developing sc2maps and puts small label about donations players criticized him at reviews. This is really stupid and does not make any chance. Even more stupidely when streamers gets more money from playing your maps(games) then you, LOL. I don't call for paid maps, but for promoting devs and donation widgets in game, may be some system inside the game such as https://www.patreon.com/ when you can make goals and how much time and money you need to implement feature in your map. There are tons of ways to make donation system, but Blizzard does not care...
I feels rage and injustice when streamer on twitch gets huge donations for several hours and it's "normal". But when developer spending hundreds(thousands) of hours on developing sc2maps and puts small label about donations players criticized him at reviews.
We love you Korvin for all the great work you did on so many games.
I'll also highlight that so far I'm up to about $15 from Google Ads on my YouTube channel - which has mostly KorvinGump games on it ...
That's about $1 per month for the last 15 months ...
I've resolved the lobby bug in my maps. The issue was caused by using both Void Multi and Void Campaign dependencies in the same map. This worked fine right up until 3.1.2.
I've resolved the lobby bug in my maps. The issue was caused by using both Void Multi and Void Campaign dependencies in the same map. This worked fine right up until 3.1.2.
i'm sorry but this is hillarious :D. Using the pleb's workforce to fill the desolated arcade for 30 000$ is just the best deal in Blizzard's life LOL. And i even wasn't about to offend anyone i'm working as economist and this is exactly how executives think, sorry.
Let's get rich off of makeing a Starcraft tv show on the editor new episodes every Saturday
@abvdzh: Go
True, it is not a ton of money in the grand scheme of things. I'll admit, the issue I think is the vast disconnect of southern California and the rest of the world. I live here, and 30 grand is... not much money, it won't get anything done, whereas 30 grand almost anywhere else is worth a years salary and can buy a lot of stuff. Won't pay a programmer for even half a year, if that. 30 grand will pay for a good coder for less then 3 months of work. For Blizzard to do anything, they have to spend a fair chunk of change.
You are totally correct that an executive probably sign off on it because they thought it was a good deal. Best guess would be Chris Sigaty since he is the one mostly SC2 oriented among the executives (at least he does a fair number of the SC2 interviews and events).
Back to the more immediate topic at hand... It is unfortunate that they will not release the fix immediately. I would hazard that this bug was unexpected/missed in testing, and they already had the next patch scheduled. So they are adding the fix into the next patch, rather then disrupt their schedule.
As for a workaround, has anyone discovered any reliable one?
True, I'm also a coder, and I find SC2 a nice break from work, staring at raw code (Java/C/cplusplus mainly). This is why I added the caution about coding in games, as noted in your last sentence. Sadly, even coders leave programming altogether and employ their logic skills in more lucrative fields (usually finance).
Guys, could the fact, that you can circumvent this lobby bug, by joining a replay (one from the time before the recent patch) with 12 players, and play the map, without kicks, be a hint in the right direction? Or give some clues at least?
The fact that the map itself loads and is playable through this "replay techinque", with the usual player size (over 8), indicates that the problem is maybe not within the maps itself, but rather at a different moment during the starting up process, no?
Same. VoiD Campaign and War3 in the one that is not working. No VoiD and No War3 in the one that works.
This is certainly true. Its the Initialisation Process that craps out. If you get as far as see a single second of loading screen then the map will work (got past the initialisation bug). This is why changing map code itself won't fix, only the configuration components that affect the map initiation process (hence the focus on Game Attributes and Game Variants and Included dependencies ... all of which are setup during initialisation.)
DAMN! I was feeling hopeful. Got it to load with 10 players with VoiD dependency removed. (old version of map).
BUT, Frack - it still craps out on load with 14 players.
So ... removing VoiD dependency is NOT a reliable bypass.
If I remove void mods (two of them) I can get at least 5v5 going for Star Battle X.
Keep in mind that if you have other mods linked to your map they may also be linked to the Void mod too.
Right now I can fix the lobby join buy by adjusting game variants and uploading a map that does not link to dependencies such as the Void mods.
@ArcaneDurandel: Go
@Kloupz: Go
Guys, don't forget, when you compare engines, to take into account the difference between a job for a company as an employee, and a desired work on your own passion. The latter may be a 12 hours a day of pure happiness and show insane rate of learning. The work as an employee may feel tough, and money here may matter more than the fun.
So, I can imagine a person who works for money in a zero coding related field, and codes on fucking asm or whatever after work. And another person, like Arcane, who codes at work and has fun in sc2 editor at free time. These two persons may not find common views on the better ways to make money and the better ways for hobby coding. But not because of the objective properties of the engines they use. They are just biased, they look from different positions, and have different passions. Hobbies tend to differ from the jobs, and the tools people use for hobbies tend to look better in their eyes.
Some people manage to merge a hobby and a work. So they have both alot of fun and alot of time (because they get payed). And in that case learning Unity to the nearly professional way would take about 2 years, not 5-10.
Yes you are right. Actually it depends totally on the kind of game, and the ambitions pursued. My estimation of 5-10 years comes from a personnal project, and I am quite perfectionnist. And my real job let me much free time nowadays.
But SC 2 provides :
- a full world / context
- many high quality 3D models which go well together
- numerous gameplay automated process (RTS oriented but which can do the job for RPG or even FSP too)
- automated process for move / paths / footprint (following my tests on Unity, it is not that easy on this one)
- operationnal and easily customizable graphic engine (and I think Unity provides many possibilities for that but it requires expert knowledges to get a professionnal visual result)
- A fully done UI
All of this require expert knowledges to be done the good way on Unity and Unreal, to get a professional result.
I don't know Unreal but people usually say that it is a few harder to use than Unity as it has still less automated process. I discover each day on Unity (as I still kind of study it) some extensions which can be bought to customize the graphic engine or automate some process. It is a big jungle. And it requires knowledge to be used the right way.
About the 3D models sold on the AssetStore, they don't fit all together to say the least. Almost each model / pack doesn't fit with anything else actually, even without speaking about the quality of them, which could often be disappointing. And they have to be bought. It is from this that I was speaking about risky financial invesments (pay a 3D graphic guy to make custom graphics).
Many people complain about the complexity of the editor of SC 2. But his complexity is on things that you have to create from scratch on Unity / Unreal. Abilities / hero level / behavior / effects, all that has to be fully done from scratch. And an other time, it requires expert knowledge to avoid the many traps there is on the way.
On the other hand, I am thinking about coding into SC2 (because I think that triggers are very usefull and powerfull, but very power greedy even for very simple task) but I don't know yet how / where I can code in his editor xD
@Kloupz: Go
after studying data for a long time i can say that its simplicity deceiving. It kind of make illusion that you working on much higher level, compared to raw code, but it is true only if you doing some simple things which data editor has presets for. For everything else there is a TON of pitfalls. It is because the way everything assembled is hidden from the user and you have to learn it by trial and error method. There are lot of scenarios which will make your head burn in flames just because you don't know the order in which actors associated with action are being created or effects executed or markers applied. And the point is it doesn't rly complicated it's just you can't go in the next room to Blizzard's software engineer and ask what the hell happening. While Blizzard's game designer can. This comes to a point where people want just to use triggers or scripting for everything just so system will be understandable :
and there is a problem with that. A lot of things (mostly visuals, i.e. actors) will still require data objects to work. And some things such as action actors (placing impact on hitbox) just can't be simulated with triggers from what i know. The editor designed the way that forcing you to use data basicaly.
For example in data units doesn't actualy die while casting persistent effects. They just feign death so the death visuals and kill credits occur. But the reference on the caster of effect still exist until effect goes off. However if you fire periodic effects with triggers (create effect on unit from unit + timer) the reference of caster will be lost if caster dies. ETC, ETC. You'll have a hard times handle each of this data systems with triggers.
@Zolden: Go
A little about money related thing. For me it is not acceptable when my work has a chance of not getting paid for (thats the opposite to a hobby thing). That's why the idea of arcade contests don't insipre me and ain't gonna take my ass from the couch, even though 3000-7000$ is a shitload of money for Ukraine nowadays. In my opinion the only good option for participation is if you already worked on something and could push it for a deadline. Otherwise (if you sacrifice your free time only trying to take 1-5 place) it's just the case when you being used by Blizzard to populate the arcade map list.
no no no
@abvdzh: Go Yes the reverse engineering needed is the big problem of this editor. I really regret that Blizzard doesn't work more on the editor. It is why I think that paid maps would have been fine (for the authors of course, but for the evolution of the editor too). But people have chosen the other way.
@houndofbaskerville: Go Conspiracy theory ? I don't think so. They only reduced to the minimum possible the development of the editor, to be able to use it themselves to reach their goal, and to allow mapmakers to have fun, while not exploding the budget.
I feels rage and injustice when streamer on twitch gets huge donations for several hours and it's "normal". But when developer spending hundreds(thousands) of hours on developing sc2maps and puts small label about donations players criticized him at reviews. This is really stupid and does not make any chance. Even more stupidely when streamers gets more money from playing your maps(games) then you, LOL. I don't call for paid maps, but for promoting devs and donation widgets in game, may be some system inside the game such as https://www.patreon.com/ when you can make goals and how much time and money you need to implement feature in your map. There are tons of ways to make donation system, but Blizzard does not care...
http://www.youtube.com/user/RussianMapster
We love you Korvin for all the great work you did on so many games.
I'll also highlight that so far I'm up to about $15 from Google Ads on my YouTube channel - which has mostly KorvinGump games on it ... That's about $1 per month for the last 15 months ...
Maybe i should record some more games .... http://youtube.com/user/TheMissingLing
I've resolved the lobby bug in my maps. The issue was caused by using both Void Multi and Void Campaign dependencies in the same map. This worked fine right up until 3.1.2.
I think blizzard just fixed the bug on their end lol
They applied an update on the servers earlier today. This might have addressed this.
I fixed it on the 9th. I just never got around to posting it here since the thread was pretty derailed.
Edit: Just checked one of the maps I didn't update and it's still broken so they've not fixed it yet.