That is your opinion, not mine. I disagree with you on every point and find that the SC2 editor is far more suited to those new to modding (which I obviously am) than a full SDK. I would much rather learn modding on this editor and later ADD SDKs to my repertoire than abandon this editor and start over.
Not at all, the editor is good for, "new modders" as you say. And that's all it's good for. It's still just an RTS engine and restricted to a tiny audience on the grand scale. Sure you don't have to deal with asset management like you have to with a real game production in an SDK like Unity or UDK, but you are ridiculously limited in what you can actually do with your great ideas.
Taking Starcraft Universe as an example dude. How the hell do you expect an idea like that will ever work on BNET? The input lag, the lack of multi-map support, the failure of the popularity system, the fact that you're only visible to a tiny and restricted audience? With as much work as you've put into this mod, you could have done the same thing in an SDK and had a truly amazing product to show for it, on something like Steam.
This is the problem, it's okay for prototyping a project, but not for production level results. Games like SCU and Smashcraft got noticed by real game companies because of the amount of effort put into them, and the production quality of the game itself. But if you're looking to produce a playable game at that level of quality, BNET is the not the platform you should be developing on. You know what I mean? A great looking trailer means shit if you have someone in the background determining whether you can play the game or not.
You might be the 2nd best data editor in the community (me being the first and all), but you really got your head up your ass when it comes to knowing "the system".
In the event they ever get around to releasing the tools necessary to appropriately create custom maps, then they can get some amount of praise. Until then I fail to see why they should be defended at all.
How long has it been since SCII was first started in development? Then they can't even finish all of it in their essentially unlimited time frame so release a sub-par product that barely works and isn't even the complete game, and the subsequent expansions for SCII will probably be at the same price with minor perks that should have already been included that probably won't work properly until the last game is released.
In order to claim that SC2 is sub-par you must first demonstrate that other games are better than it. So here's my challenge to you: Name 5 games that contain a game editor or toolkit that include all of the games assets. This included program must ALSO be able to fully customize the content intended for the game AND for other genres. That means if the program is from an RPG game but can only make RPG mods (can't be adapted to RTS/TBS/FPS etc.) then clearly it is not a superior example.
We're comparing apples to apples here, so prove that SC2 is the sub-par waste of time you believe it to be. Quote from Mephs: Go
Also, @OP:
TL;DR, but if you want to make real games, learn to make a game, stop fucking around with the limited editor, because your dream game with all these features and whatnots and wahoos isn't possible on this architecture. All custom mapping is good for are small mini-games and shit that doesn't require persistence.
That is your opinion, not mine. I disagree with you on every point and find that the SC2 editor is far more suited to those new to modding (which I obviously am) than a full SDK. I would much rather learn modding on this editor and later ADD SDKs to my repertoire than abandon this editor and start over.
----
Half Life, Fallout, pretty much any game using Unreal Engine brings me way past five, Doom if you're good with it (I'm guessing you are not). All of which would also severely suffer if they failed to include the kit, and some of which really weren't worth it (albeit mostly better than this). Altogether you have a very vague concept of game development. Besides I'm not saying anything bad about the editor; I'm saying that the game sucked, the online sucks making the editor fairly ineffective because I don't care enough knowing that the system's so severely flawed, and I'm saying Blizzard sucks. Pay more attention.
Now prove that it's not since you seem adamant to show me that I'm wrong because of your near obsession-status with SC being the best (and for the record, I really don't care and probably won't actually read all of it if you try to).
It's been my observation that the amount of time people are willing to spend complaining about something is directly proportional to how much of a damn they give about it.
If you honestly felt there were all these better options out there, you'd be off spending your time and money on one of those instead of writing out walls of text here. And yet here you are, because you believe the game/system could be better and strongly wish to see that happen.
So if we both have the exact same goal, why are we still fighting about it?
Clearly it is you who has a very vague understanding of me given that you are completely oblivious to me and my stance.
You assume I believe SC is the best.
You assume I am in love with the popularity system
You assume I am a Blizzard fanboy for life
You're wrong on all accounts and if you actually knew anything about me and my post history you'd know this. I don't have to prove any of the things you're challenging me on because I already have with my past actions.
I want people to stop being utter fools and use the misplaced rage for something that can actually effect a change. Raging at Blizzard is not an effective method for change. It just makes them less likely to care about what we think given how incredibly childish you're acting.
Varine:
I an not refuting your claims about the games you have listed as having he same or perhaps better modding support as SC2.
Yet other than the claims i see no provided evidence. As a Game Design Student i have used both the Unreal Tournament 2004, and 3 editors
as well as the UDK( wont comment on that here) i will admit these that the Unreal Editors from both of these games are very powerful but are also
sport an more significant learning curve. It feels to me that the SC2 Editor is Superior to these games in both learnability and flexability.
As well it feels to me and im sure others Faster to work in to get viewable results. this is compared only to The Unreal Eds for The Tournament games.
ProzaicMuze:
I would like to thank you for the time you are giving the community. Thanks for trying to make Modding an easier process for others.
I would like to help if i may, i am some what alright withe Data Editing and enjoy helping others. If you want a little different perspective or experience with
Data Editing let me know. my experience is mainly with validators effects and buffs.
To others:
Sc2 Editor is a Modding tool not a full fledged stand alone game development platform.( I know i'm stating the obvious here, but there seem to be those who are forgetting or not realizing this) Like Many another modding tools its for developing Variations of the Core Game play. that is it flexible enough to Make something nearly unrelated is amazing, but it is still a Modding Tool for a specific type of game.
To Everyone:
Thank you if you took the time to read the post. no offense was intended in any part.
this sounds great!
when is the first tutorial coming out? I always think I know enough about the editor and find some dumb catch that takes me months to work out. I don't want to spam the editor with question threads so a tutorial would really help me!
I think this thread is great and I hope it actually goes somewhere
cheers!
Granted I don't agree with about 90% of what you said but I'll pass over the biggest part (where the popularity system is the only thing preventing the success of a map) but I'll pass over that for now.
I can help when I have time. I work some random days but I'm usually open on the weekends, as well as Monday and Wednesday.
What qualifications do I have?
-I've made a lagless FPS engine (can prove). I'm actually the one who taught bounty how to do it (he never heard of "Create thread" before I told him - although I think he did a bad variation of it).
-I've made some pretty crazy things with actors, and I have a generaly decent amount of knowledge of the data editor.
-I have also (on my own) pulled out the UI models and replaced them with one of my own creation (can prove as well) - although I need someone else to texture the model.
-Done a bit with most everything else. Lots of stuff about lag reduction (thanks to WW2 Diplo), generally decent amount of Data Editor knowledge (I mean.. WW2 Diplo alone has over 600 actors).
-I've also written a guide here and there. I did one back in the day about how to build on ramps, and I did one here recently about how to make a good and simple amphibous system in SC2 (granted video quality is crap because I don't know what settings I need to save the video on in windows movie maker).
Anyways if you're interested I'll check back here once in a while, as well as PM's.
Edit: BTW a better to approach would be to say: "Yes we all know Blizzard is made up of ignorant retards but lets do the best we can even knowing they don't give a sh*t".
nice necro but i saw someone necro from 880 days + lol. anyways proziac is foolish. he says people are to blame but its both blizzard fans and blizzard to blame... people make stupid maps and blizzard makes a frustrating system where people abuse it. so yep its both.
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Not at all, the editor is good for, "new modders" as you say. And that's all it's good for. It's still just an RTS engine and restricted to a tiny audience on the grand scale. Sure you don't have to deal with asset management like you have to with a real game production in an SDK like Unity or UDK, but you are ridiculously limited in what you can actually do with your great ideas.
Taking Starcraft Universe as an example dude. How the hell do you expect an idea like that will ever work on BNET? The input lag, the lack of multi-map support, the failure of the popularity system, the fact that you're only visible to a tiny and restricted audience? With as much work as you've put into this mod, you could have done the same thing in an SDK and had a truly amazing product to show for it, on something like Steam.
This is the problem, it's okay for prototyping a project, but not for production level results. Games like SCU and Smashcraft got noticed by real game companies because of the amount of effort put into them, and the production quality of the game itself. But if you're looking to produce a playable game at that level of quality, BNET is the not the platform you should be developing on. You know what I mean? A great looking trailer means shit if you have someone in the background determining whether you can play the game or not.
You might be the 2nd best data editor in the community (me being the first and all), but you really got your head up your ass when it comes to knowing "the system".
I wouldn't call SC2 as just "some" presence
http://www.complexitygaming.com/news/2969/
@ProzaicMuze:
Quote from ProzaicMuze:
Quote from Varine: Go
In the event they ever get around to releasing the tools necessary to appropriately create custom maps, then they can get some amount of praise. Until then I fail to see why they should be defended at all.
How long has it been since SCII was first started in development? Then they can't even finish all of it in their essentially unlimited time frame so release a sub-par product that barely works and isn't even the complete game, and the subsequent expansions for SCII will probably be at the same price with minor perks that should have already been included that probably won't work properly until the last game is released.
In order to claim that SC2 is sub-par you must first demonstrate that other games are better than it. So here's my challenge to you: Name 5 games that contain a game editor or toolkit that include all of the games assets. This included program must ALSO be able to fully customize the content intended for the game AND for other genres. That means if the program is from an RPG game but can only make RPG mods (can't be adapted to RTS/TBS/FPS etc.) then clearly it is not a superior example.
We're comparing apples to apples here, so prove that SC2 is the sub-par waste of time you believe it to be. Quote from Mephs: Go
Also, @OP:
TL;DR, but if you want to make real games, learn to make a game, stop fucking around with the limited editor, because your dream game with all these features and whatnots and wahoos isn't possible on this architecture. All custom mapping is good for are small mini-games and shit that doesn't require persistence.
That is your opinion, not mine. I disagree with you on every point and find that the SC2 editor is far more suited to those new to modding (which I obviously am) than a full SDK. I would much rather learn modding on this editor and later ADD SDKs to my repertoire than abandon this editor and start over.
----
Half Life, Fallout, pretty much any game using Unreal Engine brings me way past five, Doom if you're good with it (I'm guessing you are not). All of which would also severely suffer if they failed to include the kit, and some of which really weren't worth it (albeit mostly better than this). Altogether you have a very vague concept of game development. Besides I'm not saying anything bad about the editor; I'm saying that the game sucked, the online sucks making the editor fairly ineffective because I don't care enough knowing that the system's so severely flawed, and I'm saying Blizzard sucks. Pay more attention.
Now prove that it's not since you seem adamant to show me that I'm wrong because of your near obsession-status with SC being the best (and for the record, I really don't care and probably won't actually read all of it if you try to).
@Varine: Go
It's been my observation that the amount of time people are willing to spend complaining about something is directly proportional to how much of a damn they give about it.
If you honestly felt there were all these better options out there, you'd be off spending your time and money on one of those instead of writing out walls of text here. And yet here you are, because you believe the game/system could be better and strongly wish to see that happen.
So if we both have the exact same goal, why are we still fighting about it?
Clearly it is you who has a very vague understanding of me given that you are completely oblivious to me and my stance.
You assume I believe SC is the best.
You assume I am in love with the popularity system
You assume I am a Blizzard fanboy for life
You're wrong on all accounts and if you actually knew anything about me and my post history you'd know this. I don't have to prove any of the things you're challenging me on because I already have with my past actions.
I want people to stop being utter fools and use the misplaced rage for something that can actually effect a change. Raging at Blizzard is not an effective method for change. It just makes them less likely to care about what we think given how incredibly childish you're acting.
Whereas you are just taking a very easy way out of confrontation and also apparently having an issue with the concept of hyperbole.
Varine: I an not refuting your claims about the games you have listed as having he same or perhaps better modding support as SC2. Yet other than the claims i see no provided evidence. As a Game Design Student i have used both the Unreal Tournament 2004, and 3 editors as well as the UDK( wont comment on that here) i will admit these that the Unreal Editors from both of these games are very powerful but are also sport an more significant learning curve. It feels to me that the SC2 Editor is Superior to these games in both learnability and flexability. As well it feels to me and im sure others Faster to work in to get viewable results. this is compared only to The Unreal Eds for The Tournament games.
ProzaicMuze: I would like to thank you for the time you are giving the community. Thanks for trying to make Modding an easier process for others. I would like to help if i may, i am some what alright withe Data Editing and enjoy helping others. If you want a little different perspective or experience with Data Editing let me know. my experience is mainly with validators effects and buffs.
To others: Sc2 Editor is a Modding tool not a full fledged stand alone game development platform.( I know i'm stating the obvious here, but there seem to be those who are forgetting or not realizing this) Like Many another modding tools its for developing Variations of the Core Game play. that is it flexible enough to Make something nearly unrelated is amazing, but it is still a Modding Tool for a specific type of game.
To Everyone: Thank you if you took the time to read the post. no offense was intended in any part.
Oh no not a necro! AHHHHH
The Project Support Group just went live. The other two groups will follow suit in the coming weeks :)
this sounds great! when is the first tutorial coming out? I always think I know enough about the editor and find some dumb catch that takes me months to work out. I don't want to spam the editor with question threads so a tutorial would really help me! I think this thread is great and I hope it actually goes somewhere cheers!
Wrong, its actually this way, and constructive feedback is disregarded most of the time.
Boy are you late to the party. . .
@ProzaicMuze: Go
Ok I'll play,
Granted I don't agree with about 90% of what you said but I'll pass over the biggest part (where the popularity system is the only thing preventing the success of a map) but I'll pass over that for now.
I can help when I have time. I work some random days but I'm usually open on the weekends, as well as Monday and Wednesday.
What qualifications do I have? -I've made a lagless FPS engine (can prove). I'm actually the one who taught bounty how to do it (he never heard of "Create thread" before I told him - although I think he did a bad variation of it). -I've made some pretty crazy things with actors, and I have a generaly decent amount of knowledge of the data editor. -I have also (on my own) pulled out the UI models and replaced them with one of my own creation (can prove as well) - although I need someone else to texture the model. -Done a bit with most everything else. Lots of stuff about lag reduction (thanks to WW2 Diplo), generally decent amount of Data Editor knowledge (I mean.. WW2 Diplo alone has over 600 actors). -I've also written a guide here and there. I did one back in the day about how to build on ramps, and I did one here recently about how to make a good and simple amphibous system in SC2 (granted video quality is crap because I don't know what settings I need to save the video on in windows movie maker).
Anyways if you're interested I'll check back here once in a while, as well as PM's.
Edit: BTW a better to approach would be to say: "Yes we all know Blizzard is made up of ignorant retards but lets do the best we can even knowing they don't give a sh*t".
TL:DR ...
why did I posted anyways?
Whatever, I red the title and... why are you puting so much effort on being ?&*%?$&holes... can't you just enjoy the game like 99% of the people?
@mnadeau1992: Go
nice necro but i saw someone necro from 880 days + lol. anyways proziac is foolish. he says people are to blame but its both blizzard fans and blizzard to blame... people make stupid maps and blizzard makes a frustrating system where people abuse it. so yep its both.