This thread is not about whining, nor about serious discussion, but about remembering everything that happened on the past to celebrate SC2 birthday :)
- Map makers had a very bugged editor, and every email we sent to Blizzard asking for help with the editor were answered as "we do not provide support to the editor since it is an extra feature." Not even Blizzard forums were helping until they decide to answer questions many months later (and they forgot about that and stopped answering them).
- Blizzard starts to reset the popularity. For map makers, that was like resetting the ladder. New maps half-way there were being sent back to the bottom every new reset.
- Blizzard made a Custom Map Contest. Many talented map makers tried, but we all got disappointed by the winners (one of them was making the map since BETA). One of the winning maps could be done in less than a day, and it had 0 replayability. Blizzard said they would stick those maps on the top, but they forgot or they just didn't care. Nobody cared either, it was terrible! Nobody played those maps for more than a week despite all the advertisement.
- Blizzard starts to ban map makers complaining about their maps not being popular on the forums. The popularity system becomes a prohibited subject. No one talks about it anymore (although there's always someone talking about it).
- Blizzard had the brilliant idea of not only reset the popularity, but to block the popularity of the popular maps. So brilliant that they did that more than once. That completely killed the maps that had just arrived to the first page while the old popular ones kept popular. (That's how one of my maps died forever).
- Blizzard says on the forum that they will now ban maps because "they can." So, they ban maps due to sound copyright, nazi symbols on the unit's path, or bad words on the dictionary (how another map of mine died forever). That was before they decide that map makers should be warned in details about their maps being removed from the game.
- Blizzard gives an interview on Blizzcon and says that the system is AWESOME and they did a really good job with the map consumer. They also tell map makers to learn to advertise if they want their maps popular. ()
- Blizzard launches patch 1.3 with lots of changes! A new fun or not system that does not work at all! A new popularity system called "Up and Coming" that does not work at all! And a new tab called Featured maps that no one goes there! Yes, there was a search bar, but it didn't help that much since the lobbies were still empty. And to make matters worse, they took out the featured maps from the popularity list (except for their own maps, of course). The good suggestions such as sorting maps by how long the host is waiting in lobby was completly ignored.
And I can't be arsed to add more into my post because the fucking forum keeps crashing on me. Anyway - all of that is whining. "Blizzard decided to add in a popularity system that sucks" is sarcasm stated as a objective fact. It's not to say that you're only making bad points, but most of it is "QQ Blizzard then made this bad decision".
There's a difference between "Blizzard has implemented a new system that sucks balls and doesn't work at all" and "I, and many mappers with me, really dislike Blizzard's new system". What I'm looking for here is a thread that A) provides cold facts about how the popularity system works, B) has a list of pros and cons (as in: "The Fun or Not system in theory allows people to make unpopular maps popular", not as in "The current popularity system keeps sucky maps at the top") and C) builds upon these points to discuss in exactly what ways they are good or bad. Then, I'd want to come up with improvements and critically think about whether they would actually improve the system. That is something I'd want to present to Blizzard, not a post like yours that sarcastically calls everything they've done bad.
Alright. You got me. There might be some not "cold facts" in there, but the "main idea" of the post is still not about whinning, but to remind us of historical facts.
And everyone is already tired of suggestions. This thread has no space for suggestions (although I'm giving some) since it's just stating quick facts without going into further details (like an index) :)
I like, no, I LOVE Starcraft for all it's aspects: The singleplayer, the multiplayer (I watch hours of competetive starcraft every day) and UMS. With the release approaching I thought of all the countless hours of fun I had with WC3's custom maps and presumed a glorious future was upon me.
Soon after I came to hate battlenet 0.2 as much as the next person. Besides the popularity system there were just plain out pathetic issues like no countdown reset when someone leaves (which has no been fixed one year after release, yippie).
That is all well known, so the constant whining now annoys me almost as much as the issues themselves.
With what I'm about to say I probably will make some enemies.
That you now not only hate on Blizzard but on the players as well, calling them dumb, is just stupid. There were dumb players in WC3 as well, but I still had fun. Why? Because there was an ocean of good maps to swim in.
In Starcraft there is not. Most maps just suck or have low replayability. And don't tell me I don't find them because of the popsys, I lurk here every day.
Rodrigo, as you are so outspoken I will take a look at your maps. Plz don't take this as hostile.
1. Debates: Funny map, I like to play it (after waiting over half a year I think for it to be published on EU) once in a while. With parties. It is so nichy, you can not really have thought that it would be very popular?
2. Nexus Word Wars: First I'd like to mention that every other company would have banned it as well for the words that were in it, the Blizzard hate is here just not justified. Other than that, again a fun map, but nothing that you play longer than a week, with popsys or without. Did you picture NWW clans and communities when you made the map? Nobody would have played Raynor Party as well if there was only the typing game. And it was a satirical map after all, wasn't it?
3. Banana Cheaters: Now that map was just awesome. As I wrote in it's thread, it was the first map in SC2 that was so captivating that I just had to beat it. Then I beat it. Haven't played it since (and not because of lack of players).
4. Nexus Hindrance Wars: I won't write much here, as I just didn't enjoy it and don't know how popular it is.
But I think you get my point.
Other than that I have not played one good RPG in SC2. I remember friends messaging me "hey, let's try this map here" and then - swoosh - it's frickin' 4 in the morning. Has not happened in Starcraft 2 yet. Although I'd like to put out an honorable mention for "Storms Keep" (I think that was it's name) which was quite entertaining, as well as "Stranded on Korhal" back in the beta, which chase scene in the city was just awesome. :D Both singleplayer tho.
I have to say I was a bit pissed to see so much effort put into DotA maps like SotiS, that would never ever come even in quality to the original or LoL, HoN or probably DotA2. Waste of talent in my eyes.
So the maps that have replayability are maps that had it in WC3 as well. I liked Legion TD, so I play Squadron TD (not much, but still). And I'd be happy if there were a Tropical Tower Wars port.
Now, do I whine? Maybe a little, ye. But as I've written in another thread, I'm keeping my hopes up for the maps to come. People are not dumber than they were 9 years ago. Maybe some are more casual oriented, but I don't believe they are the ones that rule over the popularity system. They will stick with their consoles and LoL-shit.
I'm deeply sorry. I really do not want to cause that. If you enjoy map making and don't care about the less-than-5% chances of a good map be popular, please keep map making. I'm not here to destroy dreams or hobbies. I just wanted to state all the problems in a single thread. It will make me feel bad if I actually destroyed your fun. :(
Don't worry, I was kinda making a joke. I'm mapping because I freaking love mapping, and I given up long ago that anybody would play my map other than relatives, not because of the quality, but because I don't want to bother advertising daily.
Excellent post. I also miss some "epic" wc3 moments when people play new maps and have fun. The experience was so vastly different than in sc2 that I just felt like complaining from day1, but now I dont really care about custom maps in sc2. I just check out mapnight every now and then and do my own maps.
I also kinda miss wc3 scene cause there was plenty of single player RPGs that I played, but in sc2 the community is so horrible I wouldnt bother doing such a thing even though I would like to see those maps too.
And I do hate blizzard for their shitty ass changes. Now I dont really expect anything from them. But the popularity changes have been a big joke so far (except the volatile system, which made sc2 interesting for me for a while).
Besides, I really hate that the company is trying to change their custom mappers community to fill into their plans.
What is happening :
What game was made by Blizzard before Starcraft 2 ? monthly paying World of Warcraft.
The whole popularity system and limits fixed in the editor was aimed at one thing : turn the ever-happy blizzard mapmaking community into hateful group of mappers trying to reach the top list by using marketing methods like advertising and casual-aimed gameplay (short, 4 players, noob-friendly games).
What I thought : this could very well be a system-based formation to prepare the mappers to actually SELL maps in the marketplace.
Why would they do that ? Income. They won't pay you, but you will make maps that will bring them income. You will get paid only by customers.
I hate it. Really, I hate that they had to do that to such a community as this one.
In my books, that's being greedy.
The games on the front page ARE FUN! Who cares if they didn't take 5 months to make if they are enjoyable to play?
The community here is SO much different than the actual community. What people here claim "are maps that are amazing but stuck on the bottom" are maps that I have played with people, and have said are terrible!
In general, custom games are a way for the average player to go chill out and lower their APM to around 3, and have a good time. There is nothing you can do to stop that. It is the reason why SmashCraft will never stay on the front page in the US. People just don't want to deal with that.
ps: could mapster (in changes to come) implement a section (unmissable forum) that would be made for guides on how to play the mods? ;)
(mapster (or other sites) should educate/explain/help players on how to have fun with their work (the mods).. the educating should not be done in the maps, it should be done by veteran/invested players that already spend their time playing them (nudge nudge wink wink know what i mean?) themselves)
Yet again. If you played dota, civi wars and footy wars there is nothing to see in these maps. I find these maps discustingly boring. And YES I actually think there are maps I would play if they were on page1, but none of those maps are in page1.
I thought the mapster community was over whining about popularity. I'm just tired of this whining BS to even care about the popularity. Blizzard will do something as long as we don't rage over it. Give constructive criticism.
Also featured maps aren't off the popularity system. Smashcraft is like page 7 or 6 or 8 or 9 or 10. But it's still in the featured.
ah, yes.
everyone hates whinging. they get tired of seeing it. blah blah.
i used this arguement for lan and i will use it here.
yea everyone gets sick of the complaining.
but game developers have learnt time and time again if they just ignore the whinging it goes away with time.
especially when prominant community members support them and swing the community in their favor of "deal with it"
as soon as everyone stops complaining, blizzard thinks it isn't a problem anymore
and it NEVER gets fixed. EVER.
ah, yes.
everyone hates whinging. they get tired of seeing it. blah blah.
i used this arguement for lan and i will use it here.
yea everyone gets sick ofthe complaining.
but game developers have learnt time and time again if they just ignore the whinging it goes away with time.
especially when prominant community members support them and swing the community in their favor of "deal with it"
as soon as everyone stops complaining, blizzard thinks it isn't a problem anymore
and it NEVER gets fixed. EVER.
Yeah, except that these 'prominant community members' are saying "deal with it in a different way than whining on our boards", not just "deal with it".
(Sorry)Off-topic: What about marketplace? When will it be ready? Could
Blizzard charge money from their made DotA? Or have I completely
misunderstood the whole thing?
Yeah RIght if you sent blizzard this they would ban you faster then you can say "problem"
meh, it's a general discussion forum, the state of the mapping community seems pretty general to me
doesn't affect any of the informative sections.
i'd be hesitant about basically telling everyone here whose unhappy to go somewhere else =\
Again. Exactly. It's a general discussion forum. How do threads that open like this one leave room for discussion? All of it is "Meh the popularity system sucks". I refer back to my post on top of this page - you need a clear view of what's up before you can discuss things, and then you can start throwing suggestions and such out there.
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This is exactly what I mean.
And I can't be arsed to add more into my post because the fucking forum keeps crashing on me. Anyway - all of that is whining. "Blizzard decided to add in a popularity system that sucks" is sarcasm stated as a objective fact. It's not to say that you're only making bad points, but most of it is "QQ Blizzard then made this bad decision".
There's a difference between "Blizzard has implemented a new system that sucks balls and doesn't work at all" and "I, and many mappers with me, really dislike Blizzard's new system". What I'm looking for here is a thread that A) provides cold facts about how the popularity system works, B) has a list of pros and cons (as in: "The Fun or Not system in theory allows people to make unpopular maps popular", not as in "The current popularity system keeps sucky maps at the top") and C) builds upon these points to discuss in exactly what ways they are good or bad. Then, I'd want to come up with improvements and critically think about whether they would actually improve the system. That is something I'd want to present to Blizzard, not a post like yours that sarcastically calls everything they've done bad.
@Mozared: Go
Alright. You got me. There might be some not "cold facts" in there, but the "main idea" of the post is still not about whinning, but to remind us of historical facts.
And everyone is already tired of suggestions. This thread has no space for suggestions (although I'm giving some) since it's just stating quick facts without going into further details (like an index) :)
@Mozared: Go seems like for you whining = complaining.
+1 for what Mozared wrote.
I like, no, I LOVE Starcraft for all it's aspects: The singleplayer, the multiplayer (I watch hours of competetive starcraft every day) and UMS. With the release approaching I thought of all the countless hours of fun I had with WC3's custom maps and presumed a glorious future was upon me.
Soon after I came to hate battlenet 0.2 as much as the next person. Besides the popularity system there were just plain out pathetic issues like no countdown reset when someone leaves (which has no been fixed one year after release, yippie).
That is all well known, so the constant whining now annoys me almost as much as the issues themselves.
With what I'm about to say I probably will make some enemies.
That you now not only hate on Blizzard but on the players as well, calling them dumb, is just stupid. There were dumb players in WC3 as well, but I still had fun. Why? Because there was an ocean of good maps to swim in.
In Starcraft there is not. Most maps just suck or have low replayability. And don't tell me I don't find them because of the popsys, I lurk here every day.
Rodrigo, as you are so outspoken I will take a look at your maps. Plz don't take this as hostile.
1. Debates: Funny map, I like to play it (after waiting over half a year I think for it to be published on EU) once in a while. With parties. It is so nichy, you can not really have thought that it would be very popular?
2. Nexus Word Wars: First I'd like to mention that every other company would have banned it as well for the words that were in it, the Blizzard hate is here just not justified. Other than that, again a fun map, but nothing that you play longer than a week, with popsys or without. Did you picture NWW clans and communities when you made the map? Nobody would have played Raynor Party as well if there was only the typing game. And it was a satirical map after all, wasn't it?
3. Banana Cheaters: Now that map was just awesome. As I wrote in it's thread, it was the first map in SC2 that was so captivating that I just had to beat it. Then I beat it. Haven't played it since (and not because of lack of players).
4. Nexus Hindrance Wars: I won't write much here, as I just didn't enjoy it and don't know how popular it is.
But I think you get my point.
Other than that I have not played one good RPG in SC2. I remember friends messaging me "hey, let's try this map here" and then - swoosh - it's frickin' 4 in the morning. Has not happened in Starcraft 2 yet. Although I'd like to put out an honorable mention for "Storms Keep" (I think that was it's name) which was quite entertaining, as well as "Stranded on Korhal" back in the beta, which chase scene in the city was just awesome. :D Both singleplayer tho.
I have to say I was a bit pissed to see so much effort put into DotA maps like SotiS, that would never ever come even in quality to the original or LoL, HoN or probably DotA2. Waste of talent in my eyes.
So the maps that have replayability are maps that had it in WC3 as well. I liked Legion TD, so I play Squadron TD (not much, but still). And I'd be happy if there were a Tropical Tower Wars port.
Now, do I whine? Maybe a little, ye. But as I've written in another thread, I'm keeping my hopes up for the maps to come. People are not dumber than they were 9 years ago. Maybe some are more casual oriented, but I don't believe they are the ones that rule over the popularity system. They will stick with their consoles and LoL-shit.
Sorry for wall of text. Live long and prosper.
Don't worry, I was kinda making a joke. I'm mapping because I freaking love mapping, and I given up long ago that anybody would play my map other than relatives, not because of the quality, but because I don't want to bother advertising daily.
I've had a fun year with the editor.
@xSun: Go
Excellent post. I also miss some "epic" wc3 moments when people play new maps and have fun. The experience was so vastly different than in sc2 that I just felt like complaining from day1, but now I dont really care about custom maps in sc2. I just check out mapnight every now and then and do my own maps.
I also kinda miss wc3 scene cause there was plenty of single player RPGs that I played, but in sc2 the community is so horrible I wouldnt bother doing such a thing even though I would like to see those maps too.
And I do hate blizzard for their shitty ass changes. Now I dont really expect anything from them. But the popularity changes have been a big joke so far (except the volatile system, which made sc2 interesting for me for a while).
Besides, I really hate that the company is trying to change their custom mappers community to fill into their plans.
What is happening : What game was made by Blizzard before Starcraft 2 ? monthly paying World of Warcraft.
The whole popularity system and limits fixed in the editor was aimed at one thing : turn the ever-happy blizzard mapmaking community into hateful group of mappers trying to reach the top list by using marketing methods like advertising and casual-aimed gameplay (short, 4 players, noob-friendly games).
What I thought : this could very well be a system-based formation to prepare the mappers to actually SELL maps in the marketplace. Why would they do that ? Income. They won't pay you, but you will make maps that will bring them income. You will get paid only by customers.
I hate it. Really, I hate that they had to do that to such a community as this one. In my books, that's being greedy.
Just gonna put this out there....
Desert Strike = Fun
Marine Arena = Fun
Nexus Wars = Fun
SOTIS = Fun
The games on the front page ARE FUN! Who cares if they didn't take 5 months to make if they are enjoyable to play?
The community here is SO much different than the actual community. What people here claim "are maps that are amazing but stuck on the bottom" are maps that I have played with people, and have said are terrible!
In general, custom games are a way for the average player to go chill out and lower their APM to around 3, and have a good time. There is nothing you can do to stop that. It is the reason why SmashCraft will never stay on the front page in the US. People just don't want to deal with that.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
happy birthday ... blizzard!
happy birthday ... blizzard!
happy birthday ... blizzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaaaaardddddddeeeeeeee!
...
happy birthday actwithnovision bliiiiiiiiiiiiiizzzzzzzzzzzzard ...
happy birthday to all our galaxies!!!
+=+=+==+=+==+=+==+=+==+=+==+=+==+=+==+=+==+=+==+=+==+=+==+=+=+
ps: could mapster (in changes to come) implement a section (unmissable forum) that would be made for guides on how to play the mods? ;)
(mapster (or other sites) should educate/explain/help players on how to have fun with their work (the mods).. the educating should not be done in the maps, it should be done by veteran/invested players that already spend their time playing them (nudge nudge wink wink know what i mean?) themselves)
@TacoManStan: Go
Yet again. If you played dota, civi wars and footy wars there is nothing to see in these maps. I find these maps discustingly boring. And YES I actually think there are maps I would play if they were on page1, but none of those maps are in page1.
Can we get a list of what Rodrigo has done to the mapping community this past year?
It's seriously getting on my nerves.
I thought the mapster community was over whining about popularity. I'm just tired of this whining BS to even care about the popularity. Blizzard will do something as long as we don't rage over it. Give constructive criticism.
Also featured maps aren't off the popularity system. Smashcraft is like page 7 or 6 or 8 or 9 or 10. But it's still in the featured.
There is s much truth in the post, you're not helping my motivation on creating a fast paced tense tug of war map...
ah, yes.
everyone hates whinging. they get tired of seeing it. blah blah.
i used this arguement for lan and i will use it here.
yea everyone gets sick of the complaining.
but game developers have learnt time and time again if they just ignore the whinging it goes away with time.
especially when prominant community members support them and swing the community in their favor of "deal with it"
as soon as everyone stops complaining, blizzard thinks it isn't a problem anymore
and it NEVER gets fixed. EVER.
@maverck: Go
Truth.
Yeah, except that these 'prominant community members' are saying "deal with it in a different way than whining on our boards", not just "deal with it".
Yeah RIght if you sent blizzard this they would ban you faster then you can say "problem"
@Mozared:
meh, it's a general discussion forum, the state of the mapping community seems pretty general to me
doesn't affect any of the informative sections.
i'd be hesitant about basically telling everyone here whose unhappy to go somewhere else =\
@maverck: Go
Again. Exactly. It's a general discussion forum. How do threads that open like this one leave room for discussion? All of it is "Meh the popularity system sucks". I refer back to my post on top of this page - you need a clear view of what's up before you can discuss things, and then you can start throwing suggestions and such out there.