So, I think this is the perfect time for us to look back and deeply analyse all changes Blizzard made for our map making community.
Here's my list:
- The new Battle.net 2.0 system could be easily boosted just by opening a new host. Nexus Wars showed this was very effective. So effective that that boosted map is popular since today. Not only popular, but is the main example of a "technical, artistic, and creative" mod community as Blizzard said on their Blog. (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/3208733). Blizzard then, fixed that and we had to wait 5 minutes for each map "bump." Still, those bumps helped the community a lot by bringing a lot of new maps to the first page (cough...Smashcraft... cough... cough...).
- Map makers had a very bugged editor, and every email we sent to Blizzard asking for help with the editor were answered as "we do not provide support to the editor since it is an extra feature." Not even Blizzard forums were helping until they decide to answer questions many months later (and they forgot about that and stopped answering them).
- Blizzard starts to reset the popularity. For map makers, that was like resetting the ladder. New maps half-way there were being sent back to the bottom every new reset.
- Blizzard made a Custom Map Contest. Many talented map makers tried, but we all got disappointed by the winners (one of them was making the map since BETA). One of the winning maps could be done in less than a day, and it had 0 replayability. Blizzard said they would stick those maps on the top, but they forgot or they just didn't care. Nobody cared either, it was terrible! Nobody played those maps for more than a week despite all the advertisement.
- Blizzard then, got rid of the only way new maps were getting to the first page (boost) and added a system based on hours played that made 100x harder to make a map popular. It also encouraged long maps, and the smart maps were too tiring to be played for that long. So, the maps that required less mental effort could be played for more time, and therefore became more popular. Most of the fast-paced and intense maps disappeared forever.
- Blizzard posts on the blog that they would listen to the community. So, they create the Custom Map Spotlight to feature new custom maps that they pick based on the community's decision. But, sometimes they feature wrong maps, or forget to add the maps on the game, or forget to add the maps on the blog, or forget everything. The community was mad by Blizzard's choices as if they were featuring maps of relatives, the son of an employee, or - as someone suggested here - they had a monkey and they wrote the name of each map on every banana in the bunch and they were featuring the maps written on the banana that the monkey ate. Anyways, the monkey had a really bad taste, and we didn't know if Blizzard actually played the "good" maps or at least read people's suggestions on the blog.
- Blizzard starts to ban map makers complaining about their maps not being popular on the forums. The popularity system becomes a prohibited subject. No one talks about it anymore (although there's always someone talking about it).
- Blizzard had the brilliant idea of not only reset the popularity, but to block the popularity of the popular maps. So brilliant that they did that more than once. That completely killed the maps that had just arrived to the first page while the old popular ones kept popular. (That's how one of my maps died forever).
- Blizzard says on the forum that they will now ban maps because "they can." So, they ban maps due to sound copyright, nazi symbols on the unit's path, or bad words on the dictionary (how another map of mine died forever). That was before they decide that map makers should be warned in details about their maps being removed from the game.
- Blizzard bans map makers (redwraith) and gives warning to mappers spamming on the chat channels (inviting people to play their unpopular maps).
- Blizzard gives an interview on Blizzcon and says that the system is AWESOME and they did a really good job with the map consumer. They also tell map makers to learn to advertise if they want their maps popular. ()
- Blizzard launches patch 1.3 with lots of changes! A new fun or not system that does not work at all! A new popularity system called "Up and Coming" that does not work at all! And a new tab called Featured maps that no one goes there! Yes, there was a search bar, but it didn't help that much since the lobbies were still empty. And to make matters worse, they took out the featured maps from the popularity list (except for their own maps, of course). The good suggestions such as sorting maps by how long the host is waiting in lobby was completly ignored.
- Blizzard ignores many editor problems, such as the 2 minutes time-limit to publish a map or the small limit of space map makers had. It took them long time to increase the limit of space.
- Blizzard says they will make maps to understand the map-making community, but they use private functions (lights in starjeweleed), profile achievements, custom portraits (yeah, we can't!), special map icons (with blizz logo), more than the map-size limit, and cheat their way to the top. If they don't fight the system, they are understanding NOTHING of the map-making community.
- The new patch 1.3.5 broke the fun or not system (wasn't it broken already?). So, they took it down. Also, new changes were causing constant crashes (map desync) to many maps on Battle.net, and those maps using SC2Layouts... oh god....
- Now to celebrate 1 year of Starcraft, Blizzard reminds us... whatever I don't want to repeat... The point is, the feeling I have is that the map making community is slowing losing more and more members and crying injured while Blizzard doesn't give a shit. Sorry to say that way, but I'm definitely out until I see some really good changes. I'll go play Minecraft.
For those who want to predict future changes, take a look at the past and see at what direction we are going to. And yes, I wish Blizzard could read this because if they do not acknowledge this, we will continue to go to the exactly same direction. I fear that they know all of this, but they just don't care about the custom map community. The way Blizzard treats the map making community, that is how Battle.net will end up :
I really hope I am wrong. Hopefully, the same Blizzard who loved the WC3 map community will come back. So, we, WC3 mappers, can also come back.
And if I'm forgetting something, please let me know.
Thank you.
I'm deeply sorry. I really do not want to cause that. If you enjoy map making and don't care about the less-than-5% chances of a good map be popular, please keep map making. I'm not here to destroy dreams or hobbies. I just wanted to state all the problems in a single thread. It will make me feel bad if I actually destroyed your fun. :(
(Sorry)Off-topic: What about marketplace? When will it be ready? Could Blizzard charge money from their made DotA? Or have I completely misunderstood the whole thing?
As much as I hate to admit it, it's all true. Blizzard failed hard this time. I pretty much gave up on making anything multiplayer and now I'm just working on singleplayer stuff.
Just two more points to add to the list:
1 - Art Tools. One year later. Where the hell are they?
2 - No campaign support like there was in TFT. Was it really that hard to add a feature that was in an older game?
+1 Big props for mapnight. Its pretty much only time when you can get a fullhouse without hours of begging for testers. And it can be quite fun sometimes!
I wonder if I would be as motivated without mapnight
To be honest, I think the right perspective to have on the Starcraft 2 custom map scene is that it's a testing ground for game design ideas. You aren't getting paid for your projects. Casuals will ignore them anyway if they require any tangible mental effort to play. There is no way for "good" maps to become popular on this fact alone, no matter how badly Blizzard messes up the system. The best thing to do, in my opinion, is band together as the Sc2mapster community and continue having map nights and Streamster highlights, etc. Play the good maps then. The PC gaming scene has changed dramatically since Warcraft 3 so we're dealing with a much more casual audience.
It is frustrating, especially when someone continues to scream "I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO TELL ME WHAT TO DO" in one of my maps and despite all of my efforts to console them, they simply can't wrap their minds around the idea that they need to be patient and put forth the effort to LEARN, rather than being spoonfed "baby food" game concepts. As someone who really enjoys complex games that require intelligent thought I have a hard time understanding why this is all so difficult (and rage-inducing.)
Though this could even be a product of the commercial games market. Has anyone played FF13? Or noticed the decline of complexity in Final Fantasy games since FFX? If that's not enough, just look at how mobile games have exploded in the last 2 or 3 years. Granted, some are "good" but most are intentionally designed to be picked up for 5 minutes while the user is bored to waste time in homeroom or while on the bus.
To be honest, I think the right perspective to have on the Starcraft 2 custom map scene is that it's a testing ground for game design ideas. You aren't getting paid for your projects.
If someone is willing to host the second, go ahead. I'd join in for an hour or two, but my parents dont like the amount of time I spend on the comp already so I doubt they'd let me on the comp for 7 hours straight of sc2 TWICE a week...
Yea, the fact that everything has to be idiot proof really doesnt help at all -.- And the thing is, even if you do make it idiot proof, humanity finds a new level of idiocy... I've got text tags in my map that say "Attack this to enable unit spawns" and people stand beside it asking why nothing is spawning (And yes, literally beside it, patrolling the about 1.5 nexus width between two of those text tags...)
Heh, well I meant a direct and regular contribution from your player base. But I guess if someone is willing to pay you for your time then more power to you! :)
Yea, the fact that everything has to be idiot proof really doesnt help at all -.- And the thing is, even if you do make it idiot proof, humanity finds a new level of idiocy... I've got text tags in my map that say "Attack this to enable unit spawns" and people stand beside it asking why nothing is spawning (And yes, literally beside it, patrolling the about 1.5 nexus width between two of those text tags...)
That's because you have designed your map differently from every other map and now they have to expend a heinous amount of energy to decode this new and unusual system. Oh yes, I know quite well how you feel. ._.
The best thing to do, in my opinion, is band together as the Sc2mapster community and continue having map nights and Streamster highlights, etc. Play the good maps then. The PC gaming scene has changed dramatically since Warcraft 3 so we're dealing with a much more casual audience.
You make it sound like we're the last of dying breed banding together just to survive another night. :P
idiot proof is impossible. People are still questioning how to play Nexus Wars. I remember having problems in Platform Defense because the allies were killing each other (despite all the big text saying that they had to build and survive together). I mean, they were allies, come on! To kill an ally, you have to hit Attack, you can't just right-click. And people still killing each other "Oh! What? This is not hero arena? Oh damn!"
I remember on Nexus Word Wars, after 30 seconds of instructions saying "TYPE WORDS TO KILL UNITS" with examples of people typing and killing. After 10 minutes of game with everyone seeing people typing all the time and units dying... people still question "how do I kill the units? Why is everyone typing words?? Why are the units dying suddenly after you type a word???"
So, be aware that it doesn't matter how much help you have in your map, people will still not get it. And you need those dumb people because they are what makes a map popular. And if they don't understand your map in the first few minutes (sometimes in the first 5 seconds), they will quit and never play it again.
People were more patient on WC3 because they didn't have a choice of quitting and joining a dumb map and getting a full house in less than 5 seconds. That's why they were also more patient in lobby. They could wait for more than 5 minutes. Today, people can't wait for more than 10 seconds in lobby.
I wonder when will this thread be closed. Dont complain guys, just let the "mapping phenomena" die!
It's not the 'complaining' most of us care about, it's the incessant whining. I'm definitely not a fan of the popularity system as is either, but what tires me is having a new thread on the boards each week about how much it sucks and why we should all quit mapping. I'm all open for serious and good discussion about the system, but so far nobody has made a thread with that real purpose. Every thread about the popularity system has been a case of "look at how terrible it is *sigh* =(".
I might make a thread on the Blizz forums at some point, if I can actually access them...
This thread is not about whining, nor about serious discussion, but about remembering everything that happened on the past to celebrate SC2 birthday :)
It's for all of us an achievement. Look at how much he had to deal with, and we are still here!
Yay! Starcraft is completing 1 year \o/
So, I think this is the perfect time for us to look back and deeply analyse all changes Blizzard made for our map making community.
Here's my list:
- The new Battle.net 2.0 system could be easily boosted just by opening a new host. Nexus Wars showed this was very effective. So effective that that boosted map is popular since today. Not only popular, but is the main example of a "technical, artistic, and creative" mod community as Blizzard said on their Blog. (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/3208733). Blizzard then, fixed that and we had to wait 5 minutes for each map "bump." Still, those bumps helped the community a lot by bringing a lot of new maps to the first page (cough...Smashcraft... cough... cough...).
- Map makers had a very bugged editor, and every email we sent to Blizzard asking for help with the editor were answered as "we do not provide support to the editor since it is an extra feature." Not even Blizzard forums were helping until they decide to answer questions many months later (and they forgot about that and stopped answering them).
- Blizzard starts to reset the popularity. For map makers, that was like resetting the ladder. New maps half-way there were being sent back to the bottom every new reset.
- Blizzard made a Custom Map Contest. Many talented map makers tried, but we all got disappointed by the winners (one of them was making the map since BETA). One of the winning maps could be done in less than a day, and it had 0 replayability. Blizzard said they would stick those maps on the top, but they forgot or they just didn't care. Nobody cared either, it was terrible! Nobody played those maps for more than a week despite all the advertisement.
- Blizzard then, got rid of the only way new maps were getting to the first page (boost) and added a system based on hours played that made 100x harder to make a map popular. It also encouraged long maps, and the smart maps were too tiring to be played for that long. So, the maps that required less mental effort could be played for more time, and therefore became more popular. Most of the fast-paced and intense maps disappeared forever.
- Blizzard posts on the blog that they would listen to the community. So, they create the Custom Map Spotlight to feature new custom maps that they pick based on the community's decision. But, sometimes they feature wrong maps, or forget to add the maps on the game, or forget to add the maps on the blog, or forget everything. The community was mad by Blizzard's choices as if they were featuring maps of relatives, the son of an employee, or - as someone suggested here - they had a monkey and they wrote the name of each map on every banana in the bunch and they were featuring the maps written on the banana that the monkey ate. Anyways, the monkey had a really bad taste, and we didn't know if Blizzard actually played the "good" maps or at least read people's suggestions on the blog.
- Blizzard starts to ban map makers complaining about their maps not being popular on the forums. The popularity system becomes a prohibited subject. No one talks about it anymore (although there's always someone talking about it).
- Blizzard had the brilliant idea of not only reset the popularity, but to block the popularity of the popular maps. So brilliant that they did that more than once. That completely killed the maps that had just arrived to the first page while the old popular ones kept popular. (That's how one of my maps died forever).
- Blizzard says on the forum that they will now ban maps because "they can." So, they ban maps due to sound copyright, nazi symbols on the unit's path, or bad words on the dictionary (how another map of mine died forever). That was before they decide that map makers should be warned in details about their maps being removed from the game.
- Blizzard bans map makers (redwraith) and gives warning to mappers spamming on the chat channels (inviting people to play their unpopular maps).
- Blizzard gives an interview on Blizzcon and says that the system is AWESOME and they did a really good job with the map consumer. They also tell map makers to learn to advertise if they want their maps popular. ()
- Blizzard launches patch 1.3 with lots of changes! A new fun or not system that does not work at all! A new popularity system called "Up and Coming" that does not work at all! And a new tab called Featured maps that no one goes there! Yes, there was a search bar, but it didn't help that much since the lobbies were still empty. And to make matters worse, they took out the featured maps from the popularity list (except for their own maps, of course). The good suggestions such as sorting maps by how long the host is waiting in lobby was completly ignored.
- Blizzard ignores many editor problems, such as the 2 minutes time-limit to publish a map or the small limit of space map makers had. It took them long time to increase the limit of space.
- Blizzard says they will make maps to understand the map-making community, but they use private functions (lights in starjeweleed), profile achievements, custom portraits (yeah, we can't!), special map icons (with blizz logo), more than the map-size limit, and cheat their way to the top. If they don't fight the system, they are understanding NOTHING of the map-making community.
- The new patch 1.3.5 broke the fun or not system (wasn't it broken already?). So, they took it down. Also, new changes were causing constant crashes (map desync) to many maps on Battle.net, and those maps using SC2Layouts... oh god....
- Now to celebrate 1 year of Starcraft, Blizzard reminds us... whatever I don't want to repeat... The point is, the feeling I have is that the map making community is slowing losing more and more members and crying injured while Blizzard doesn't give a shit. Sorry to say that way, but I'm definitely out until I see some really good changes. I'll go play Minecraft.
For those who want to predict future changes, take a look at the past and see at what direction we are going to. And yes, I wish Blizzard could read this because if they do not acknowledge this, we will continue to go to the exactly same direction. I fear that they know all of this, but they just don't care about the custom map community. The way Blizzard treats the map making community, that is how Battle.net will end up :
I really hope I am wrong. Hopefully, the same Blizzard who loved the WC3 map community will come back. So, we, WC3 mappers, can also come back.
And if I'm forgetting something, please let me know. Thank you.
Four threads on practically the same problem in 24 hours, and now you say that you're out?
Bye.
You made me want to stop making my map :(
I'm deeply sorry. I really do not want to cause that. If you enjoy map making and don't care about the less-than-5% chances of a good map be popular, please keep map making. I'm not here to destroy dreams or hobbies. I just wanted to state all the problems in a single thread. It will make me feel bad if I actually destroyed your fun. :(
@RodrigoAlves: Go
Blizzard should really hear this...
(Sorry)Off-topic: What about marketplace? When will it be ready? Could Blizzard charge money from their made DotA? Or have I completely misunderstood the whole thing?
I'm not making maps for the popularity system... I make them for map night, because I know there they will be played atleast sometimes...
As much as I hate to admit it, it's all true. Blizzard failed hard this time. I pretty much gave up on making anything multiplayer and now I'm just working on singleplayer stuff.
Just two more points to add to the list: 1 - Art Tools. One year later. Where the hell are they? 2 - No campaign support like there was in TFT. Was it really that hard to add a feature that was in an older game?
@Hobrow: Go
+1 Big props for mapnight. Its pretty much only time when you can get a fullhouse without hours of begging for testers. And it can be quite fun sometimes!
I wonder if I would be as motivated without mapnight
Ah, reminds me of the glorious days of multiplayer savegames and "accurate" real calculation :)
To be honest, I think the right perspective to have on the Starcraft 2 custom map scene is that it's a testing ground for game design ideas. You aren't getting paid for your projects. Casuals will ignore them anyway if they require any tangible mental effort to play. There is no way for "good" maps to become popular on this fact alone, no matter how badly Blizzard messes up the system. The best thing to do, in my opinion, is band together as the Sc2mapster community and continue having map nights and Streamster highlights, etc. Play the good maps then. The PC gaming scene has changed dramatically since Warcraft 3 so we're dealing with a much more casual audience.
It is frustrating, especially when someone continues to scream "I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO TELL ME WHAT TO DO" in one of my maps and despite all of my efforts to console them, they simply can't wrap their minds around the idea that they need to be patient and put forth the effort to LEARN, rather than being spoonfed "baby food" game concepts. As someone who really enjoys complex games that require intelligent thought I have a hard time understanding why this is all so difficult (and rage-inducing.)
Though this could even be a product of the commercial games market. Has anyone played FF13? Or noticed the decline of complexity in Final Fantasy games since FFX? If that's not enough, just look at how mobile games have exploded in the last 2 or 3 years. Granted, some are "good" but most are intentionally designed to be picked up for 5 minutes while the user is bored to waste time in homeroom or while on the bus.
Well, that's my rant. :P
We need 2 mapnights for week!
True. Though, I get paid for my projects;o.
I know I wouldnt. I havent worked on my map for about 3 months before map night...
If someone is willing to host the second, go ahead. I'd join in for an hour or two, but my parents dont like the amount of time I spend on the comp already so I doubt they'd let me on the comp for 7 hours straight of sc2 TWICE a week...
@BasharTeg: Go
Yea, the fact that everything has to be idiot proof really doesnt help at all -.- And the thing is, even if you do make it idiot proof, humanity finds a new level of idiocy... I've got text tags in my map that say "Attack this to enable unit spawns" and people stand beside it asking why nothing is spawning (And yes, literally beside it, patrolling the about 1.5 nexus width between two of those text tags...)
Heh, well I meant a direct and regular contribution from your player base. But I guess if someone is willing to pay you for your time then more power to you! :)
That's because you have designed your map differently from every other map and now they have to expend a heinous amount of energy to decode this new and unusual system. Oh yes, I know quite well how you feel. ._.
You make it sound like we're the last of dying breed banding together just to survive another night. :P
Must admit it would be cool to have another day when mappers could find testers and we could play something other than Nexus wars.
I wonder when will this thread be closed. Dont complain guys, just let the "mapping phenomena" die!
I wish Battle.net US had a rich Map night like on EU.
@TheAlmaity: Go
idiot proof is impossible. People are still questioning how to play Nexus Wars. I remember having problems in Platform Defense because the allies were killing each other (despite all the big text saying that they had to build and survive together). I mean, they were allies, come on! To kill an ally, you have to hit Attack, you can't just right-click. And people still killing each other "Oh! What? This is not hero arena? Oh damn!"
I remember on Nexus Word Wars, after 30 seconds of instructions saying "TYPE WORDS TO KILL UNITS" with examples of people typing and killing. After 10 minutes of game with everyone seeing people typing all the time and units dying... people still question "how do I kill the units? Why is everyone typing words?? Why are the units dying suddenly after you type a word???"
So, be aware that it doesn't matter how much help you have in your map, people will still not get it. And you need those dumb people because they are what makes a map popular. And if they don't understand your map in the first few minutes (sometimes in the first 5 seconds), they will quit and never play it again.
People were more patient on WC3 because they didn't have a choice of quitting and joining a dumb map and getting a full house in less than 5 seconds. That's why they were also more patient in lobby. They could wait for more than 5 minutes. Today, people can't wait for more than 10 seconds in lobby.
No need for 2 mapnights. Summer is busy time so It takes time to get a new version out :)...I probly wont get my map done for tomorrow *sight* :(...
It's not the 'complaining' most of us care about, it's the incessant whining. I'm definitely not a fan of the popularity system as is either, but what tires me is having a new thread on the boards each week about how much it sucks and why we should all quit mapping. I'm all open for serious and good discussion about the system, but so far nobody has made a thread with that real purpose. Every thread about the popularity system has been a case of "look at how terrible it is *sigh* =(".
I might make a thread on the Blizz forums at some point, if I can actually access them...
@Mozared: Go
This thread is not about whining, nor about serious discussion, but about remembering everything that happened on the past to celebrate SC2 birthday :)
It's for all of us an achievement. Look at how much he had to deal with, and we are still here!