I searched the forums and found no answers. I am sure there is a thread somewhere, I just couldn't find it.
So, what is a good amount of abilities for a hero? Although my map isn't a DoTA map, I would think that the heroes will be similar in concept. Leveling hero and abilities, along with attributes as well. No items.
So, what is a good amount of abilities for a hero? So far I am at 6, but is that too little? Each ability would have a fair amount of upgrades, however.
It depends. How often the heroes level. How many heroes there are. How long the game is.
For the map I'm working on, I'm giving each hero 9 or 10. But they aren't intended to all be learned in a single game.
For example, the mage hero has 3 ice abilities, 3 lightning, and 3 fire. The second ice spell requires 5 points in the first ice spell, and the 3rd requires 5 points in the second, etc.
So each hero can be played multiple ways.
As for how many abilities you want the player to use in a game, I would say not that many. Look at WoW - there are only a few spells that the mage uses at any given time. There's no need to have more than one type of an ability. You can dress up the graphics differently, but there's no point in having 2 direct damage spells that just look different.
And look at Diablo 2. There are many spells, but think about how many you actually use.
i agree that if you use heroes it is essential to make the abilities a choice issue for the players. This allows players to feel more invested.. if the leveling up is only the same spell augmented, it can't feel epic (in my book).
Considering how much time it actually takes to master the use of some spells.. i'd say 4 is a maximum.. (of course each abilities should "evolve") .. This choice should be the focus of the evolution of the heroes through the mod. This allows for differentiation of the player's heroes, otherwise it's warcraft 3 with no limit on the number of "same" heroes all over again.. (and that's fun maybe once or twice, but pfff not more).
So, in a sense, 4 normal and 3 ultimates (radical change/departure from the evolution of the chosen start accessible 4) adds up to 7. But you can go up to 7 (+3 ultimates) if the player has to choose 4 tops out of those in the first third of the "quest" or game.
Ultimates should be won by players savvy or investment (time/testing stuff out etc)... only this makes heroes quests' interesting, if they are just bound to be obtained, it's less interesting.
I'm surprised everyone's referring to about 6-7 abilities as "normal". 6-7 is actually quite a lot in an RTS game. In a game like WoW, the huge multitude of abilities (40+) is warranted because there's about 25 of those that are only used in really specific situations, and it's possible to easily keybind the other 15 - of which only 5 or 6 are heavily used. In any top-down game where you also have to scroll and control the camera and movement seperately, something like 4 abilities is already a pretty decent amount to work with. There's a reason every DOTA map out there works with 3 normal abilities plus an ultimate.
You could perhaps add in one or two passive 'abilities', but in most cases I'd never really go above 6 abilities, or your hero has a good potential to just become hectic to play - unless of course you give him 8 abilities of which 4 have at least a 1-2 minute cooldown. Additonally, the 'really specific situations' that warrant the use of 25 of your abilities in WoW tend to simply not exist in DOTA-style maps, thus also removing the need to have them completely.
3 Hero abilities + an Ultimate is always a nice start. All which relate, combo with each other and fit a nice cool theme.
It all depends ultimately on how many Heroes you will have thou. The less heroes the more in depth you'll probably wish to go on each Hero adding more abilities.
Just keep in mind everyone tends to have a preferred class or favour a small selection of Heroes that really appeal to them. A careful balance between quantity/quality if that makes sense :)
3 "Standard" spells. Each is slightly situational.
1 Passive buff
1 Ultimate.
That would be the breakdown for 5 abilities. If you went 6-7, I would add either another high-tier yet more situational spell, or something exotic(like summoning a unit or placing a turret) and a defensive ability.
Usually you get Class>Specialization>Trait then 4-5 levelable abilities and about 3-4 non levelable ones in some of the more complex maps. Having over 16 starts being a little too much.
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So, what is a good amount of abilities for a hero? So far I am at 6, but is that too little? Each ability would have a fair amount of upgrades, however.
I don't think 6 is too little, as long as the heroes that you are designing/ creating feel polished and are enjoyable to play. If many of the heroes seem like they are missing something down the line, then explore the option to add more abilities then.
Over complicating heroes and their abilities is usually not a good thing from my experience while playing games, especially in custom maps/ mods where you have to work around the game engine. It makes some sense for some of the bigger RPGs to have many abilities, but it is usually pretty annoying trying to manage them all.
The sort of hero template I try and adhere to is:
1 normal (non-levelable) ability. eg, taunt or a percentage based buff/heal.
3 basic hero abilities
1 superior hero ability
1 ultimate hero ability
I try and include a passive ability as long as it feels right for the hero. You probably wouldn't want to have anything over 2 passives per hero either.
In short: 6 is good. Quality > Quantity.
Edit: Make sure that support heroes aren't powerless by themselves either, they need damage abilities too!
I'm a fan of the Demigod game's style. There are something like 8 abilities, including a couple 'superior/ultimate' style ones, and they each have 4-5 levels so you can't get them all. So, even if two people have the same character, they'll be different unless they go the exact same build.
I've gotta agree with Mozared on this. When you're dealing with elements like map awareness and independent camera control, you don't want to be fumbling with 8 different spells.
I'd focus on 3-5 abilities that are good and play really well together as your baseline. Some heroes can have more if they've got special mechanics or are meant to be "advanced" heroes.
Like for example, say you've got a hero whose skills revolve around "charges"-
Passive chance on auto-attack to grant 1 charge.
Ability 1 does light damage and always grants 1 charge.
Ability 2 requires charges and deals good damage.
Ability 3 requires charges and has good utility (stun, blink, shield, w/e).
Ability 4 is an ultimate that grants 3-5 charges and does "something cool".
That gives you a good, well-rounded kit that's approachable for new players, but has adequate depth for veterans because of how the abilities play off eachother. Which order you choose to level them in will affect your hero's playstyle significantly.
Complexity kills maps. Keeping the player's kit tight and intuitive is really important.
For my first hero, these are the abilities that I currently have set up. (Names are placeholders)
Weapon: Shoots a fireball, does some AOE damage.
Ability 1: Incinerate. Does large damage at single target, and "burns" the target, dealing damage every second for 3 seconds. Instant cast.
Ability 2: Fire Storm. Does AOE damage at the target location. Works similarly to Psi-Storm. Leaves all units "burnt", dealing damage over time. 1-1.5 second cast time.
Ability 3: Flame Beam. AOE around caster. Does little or no damage, but increases fire damage done to the afflicted units by 25% fore 4 seconds.
Ability 4: Lava Skin. Melee units will take 25% damage they dealt. Instant cast, unlimited duration but drains energy.
Ability 5: Burn. Deals very small damage. Leaves the target burnt, disabling their ability to attack or use abilities for 2 seconds. After 2 seconds, the unit takes "afterburn" damage.
Ability 6: Seismic Scorch. The ultimate ability. (Map is Seismic Square. All ultimates start with "seismic") Creates a crater of fire at the target location. All units in that area suffer massive damage, and are burnt badly. Any units on top of the crater are damaged every 1 second for 6 seconds.
Ability 7: Steam Pack. Gives the caster a "steam pack", or jetpack. This allows the caster to be an air unit for a duration of time. The mover stays as ground, and so does the plane array. The height of the unit is increased a bit (for visuals). The unit then becomes similar to the colossus, where it can move and see above cliffs, however it can only be attacked by air attacks.
So that is it. Is 7 too many? I don't think so, as the burn and lava skin aren't really damage abilities.
BTW the game is meant to last for around an hour or so, and focuses on heroes.
Ability 1: Incinerate. Does large damage at single target, and "burns" the target, dealing damage every second for 3 seconds. Instant cast.
Ability 2: Fire Storm. Does AOE damage at the target location. Works similarly to Psi-Storm. Leaves all units "burnt", dealing damage over time. 1-1.5 second cast time.
Does the burn stack?
Quote:
Ability 3: Flame Beam. AOE around caster. Does little or no damage, but increases fire damage done to the afflicted units by 25% fore 4 seconds.
What happens if I take this as my first ability? Isn't it pretty useless without the other fire nukes? This mechanic sounds better suited to an ultimate or as a passive side-effect (like for example, making burnt units take X% more fire damage or X% per stack if it stacks).
Quote:
Ability 4: Lava Skin. Melee units will take 25% damage they dealt. Instant cast, unlimited duration but drains energy.
The hero's kit makes him sound very caster-ish. Do spellcaster heroes in this map tend to tank a lot of melee damage?
Quote:
Ability 5: Burn. Deals very small damage. Leaves the target burnt, disabling their ability to attack or use abilities for 2 seconds. After 2 seconds, the unit takes "afterburn" damage.
Cool.
Quote:
Ability 6: Seismic Scorch. The ultimate ability. (Map is Seismic Square. All ultimates start with "seismic") Creates a crater of fire at the target location. All units in that area suffer massive damage, and are burnt badly. Any units on top of the crater are damaged every 1 second for 6 seconds.
Beefier version of Ability 2. Could use something to "set it apart". Maybe collapse Ability 3's effect into this one?
Quote:
Ability 7: Steam Pack. Gives the caster a "steam pack", or jetpack. This allows the caster to be an air unit for a duration of time. The mover stays as ground, and so does the plane array. The height of the unit is increased a bit (for visuals). The unit then becomes similar to the colossus, where it can move and see above cliffs, however it can only be attacked by air attacks.
Death from above! :D
Quote:
So that is it. Is 7 too many? I don't think so, as the burn and lava skin aren't really damage abilities.
7 isn't strictly "too many" as long as it's all intuitive, but you don't want to add more abilities just for the sake of adding more abilities, either. You always want to ask yourself: "What role in the hero's kit does this serve? How does it help them do their job better? Does this ability's role overlap with one of the hero's other abilities? Is this something that makes the player feel smart for using it correctly?"
And a whole slew of other questions that will vary depending on the exact nature of your map.
I'd say it really depends on the style of the game. Regardless of whether or not heroes are similar to DOTA, you need to adjust the number of abilities to match your game. For example, I have 2 personal maps that I work on from time to time when I'm not working on larger projects or tutorials (zomg tutorials!? CAN IT REALLY BE!?). In one map I'm giving them 4 hero unique abilities and pulling 3-6 abilities from a pool of 10+ abilities that all heroes share. The result is something nearly like DOTA because the game is fast paced and is less about developing your hero than it is killing things. The other map has 27-36 abilities per hero, but it's also more RPG than "Arena."
Ok, thanks for the advice. The "Seismic" ability is meant to be a beefier version of one of the other hero's abilities.
Quote:
The hero's kit makes him sound very caster-ish. Do spellcaster heroes in this map tend to tank a lot of melee damage?
Yes, he is very much a caster unit. This ability will probably be able to be cast on any friendly unit, or the caster himself.
Also, there are going to be around 10 heroes in the game.
Flarik: Fire hero. Has low health, but does powerful spell DPS.
Bouldaris: Nature hero. Has high health and moves slowly. Specializes in blocking pathing and making movement of the map difficult for other players. (Has abilities like uproot, which roots the target in place, and chasm, which creates a giant unpathable crater.)
Glaci' Aere: Ice hero. Specializes in slowing targets, and has a high movement speed. Can evade easily. Effective as an escape artist. (Has abilities like blink, etc)
Uoraag: Water hero. Specializes in summoning minions. Uoragg is going to be some sort of zerg model, that summons stuff. Maybe summons drop pods from the sky with zerglings, or a nydalisk, or some overlord transports. Can burrow while moving. (It is not going to use the infestor model btw, I am already using that)
Vorr'Tex: Air hero. Specializes in using force effects. Can use an ability very similar to the mothership's vortex, but instead of trapping units it will transport them to the other vortex currently on the map. This can be used defensively, or offensively. Can also use hurricane, which whips units around, turning them into missiles that can crash into eachother, dealing damage based on the unit's mass.
Nova: Spec Ops Hero. Specializes in, well, everything. You have to win the game using each hero to unlock Nova.
Other: I will be adding in a couple of generalized units. Uoaag may be moved to that category, and a true water hero may take it's place. A melee, summoning (Uoraag), healer, and maybe one other will be added here.
As for the map, it is a bit different than most maps out there. You can play as a TD, micro, macro, hero, or Tug of War. So sometimes you will be fighting AI attacking creeps, and sometimes you will be attacking a microed army. Sometimes you will be trying to kill a wall of towers. It all depends on what your enemy is doing. It is a large map, 256x256 actually. It is perfectly symmetrical on all 4 corners. So ya, that is the basic background of the map.
Also, as you progress through the games, low tier units become useless. There are around 90 units in the game. The first 5 units you start out from, at the highest, have 150 health and do 12 damage. The most powerful unit does 950 damage and has 10,000 health.
There are going to be 8 players. More than one player can play as the same hero, but only one per team, and only 2 total. I think I will have something that allows you to play as a hero you want regardless, so that if people develop a "specialty" they can always play as that hero.
You choose the hero at the beginning of the game. Because I find dialogs rather lame, I will be proabably be doing a hero selction with cameras, etc. (Well, obviously with dialogs to accept them, but you know what I mean.)
I searched the forums and found no answers. I am sure there is a thread somewhere, I just couldn't find it.
So, what is a good amount of abilities for a hero? Although my map isn't a DoTA map, I would think that the heroes will be similar in concept. Leveling hero and abilities, along with attributes as well. No items.
So, what is a good amount of abilities for a hero? So far I am at 6, but is that too little? Each ability would have a fair amount of upgrades, however.
Maybe I'm late, but 6 is the perfect number, imo. Maybe 8 if you include passives, but over 8 is overkilling it, imo.
As I picture it:
4 normal abilities that should combine well with each other
1 pretty good ability
1 ultimate ability
2 passives like auras or upgrades
Normal abilities should include long-ranged projectiles, ranged aoe and mid to close aoe, as well as defensive or healing abilities. Pretty good and ultimate should follow the same pattern, only that being stronger.
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I searched the forums and found no answers. I am sure there is a thread somewhere, I just couldn't find it.
So, what is a good amount of abilities for a hero? Although my map isn't a DoTA map, I would think that the heroes will be similar in concept. Leveling hero and abilities, along with attributes as well. No items.
So, what is a good amount of abilities for a hero? So far I am at 6, but is that too little? Each ability would have a fair amount of upgrades, however.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
bump. anyone know? have a guess?
Great to be back and part of the community again!
I was going to say between 5 and 7, so 6 sounds about right :)
It's not too little as long as there is a good amount of variety and things are kept interesting.
@TacoManStan: Go
It depends. How often the heroes level. How many heroes there are. How long the game is.
For the map I'm working on, I'm giving each hero 9 or 10. But they aren't intended to all be learned in a single game.
For example, the mage hero has 3 ice abilities, 3 lightning, and 3 fire. The second ice spell requires 5 points in the first ice spell, and the 3rd requires 5 points in the second, etc.
So each hero can be played multiple ways.
As for how many abilities you want the player to use in a game, I would say not that many. Look at WoW - there are only a few spells that the mage uses at any given time. There's no need to have more than one type of an ability. You can dress up the graphics differently, but there's no point in having 2 direct damage spells that just look different.
And look at Diablo 2. There are many spells, but think about how many you actually use.
i agree that if you use heroes it is essential to make the abilities a choice issue for the players. This allows players to feel more invested.. if the leveling up is only the same spell augmented, it can't feel epic (in my book).
Considering how much time it actually takes to master the use of some spells.. i'd say 4 is a maximum.. (of course each abilities should "evolve") .. This choice should be the focus of the evolution of the heroes through the mod. This allows for differentiation of the player's heroes, otherwise it's warcraft 3 with no limit on the number of "same" heroes all over again.. (and that's fun maybe once or twice, but pfff not more).
So, in a sense, 4 normal and 3 ultimates (radical change/departure from the evolution of the chosen start accessible 4) adds up to 7. But you can go up to 7 (+3 ultimates) if the player has to choose 4 tops out of those in the first third of the "quest" or game.
Ultimates should be won by players savvy or investment (time/testing stuff out etc)... only this makes heroes quests' interesting, if they are just bound to be obtained, it's less interesting.
glhf ;)
I'm surprised everyone's referring to about 6-7 abilities as "normal". 6-7 is actually quite a lot in an RTS game. In a game like WoW, the huge multitude of abilities (40+) is warranted because there's about 25 of those that are only used in really specific situations, and it's possible to easily keybind the other 15 - of which only 5 or 6 are heavily used. In any top-down game where you also have to scroll and control the camera and movement seperately, something like 4 abilities is already a pretty decent amount to work with. There's a reason every DOTA map out there works with 3 normal abilities plus an ultimate.
You could perhaps add in one or two passive 'abilities', but in most cases I'd never really go above 6 abilities, or your hero has a good potential to just become hectic to play - unless of course you give him 8 abilities of which 4 have at least a 1-2 minute cooldown. Additonally, the 'really specific situations' that warrant the use of 25 of your abilities in WoW tend to simply not exist in DOTA-style maps, thus also removing the need to have them completely.
at least 4. like 2 dps, 1 support 1 ultimate
if you get above 5 it is getting harder to control them properly. use shorter cooldowns instead of a lot of abilities with a long cd.
3 Hero abilities + an Ultimate is always a nice start. All which relate, combo with each other and fit a nice cool theme.
It all depends ultimately on how many Heroes you will have thou. The less heroes the more in depth you'll probably wish to go on each Hero adding more abilities.
Just keep in mind everyone tends to have a preferred class or favour a small selection of Heroes that really appeal to them. A careful balance between quantity/quality if that makes sense :)
@Mozared: Go
When I said 5-7, I meant:
3 "Standard" spells. Each is slightly situational.
1 Passive buff
1 Ultimate.
That would be the breakdown for 5 abilities. If you went 6-7, I would add either another high-tier yet more situational spell, or something exotic(like summoning a unit or placing a turret) and a defensive ability.
Usually you get Class>Specialization>Trait then 4-5 levelable abilities and about 3-4 non levelable ones in some of the more complex maps. Having over 16 starts being a little too much.
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I don't think 6 is too little, as long as the heroes that you are designing/ creating feel polished and are enjoyable to play. If many of the heroes seem like they are missing something down the line, then explore the option to add more abilities then.
Over complicating heroes and their abilities is usually not a good thing from my experience while playing games, especially in custom maps/ mods where you have to work around the game engine. It makes some sense for some of the bigger RPGs to have many abilities, but it is usually pretty annoying trying to manage them all.
The sort of hero template I try and adhere to is:
I try and include a passive ability as long as it feels right for the hero. You probably wouldn't want to have anything over 2 passives per hero either.
In short: 6 is good. Quality > Quantity.
Edit: Make sure that support heroes aren't powerless by themselves either, they need damage abilities too!
I'm a fan of the Demigod game's style. There are something like 8 abilities, including a couple 'superior/ultimate' style ones, and they each have 4-5 levels so you can't get them all. So, even if two people have the same character, they'll be different unless they go the exact same build.
@TacoManStan: Go
I've gotta agree with Mozared on this. When you're dealing with elements like map awareness and independent camera control, you don't want to be fumbling with 8 different spells.
I'd focus on 3-5 abilities that are good and play really well together as your baseline. Some heroes can have more if they've got special mechanics or are meant to be "advanced" heroes.
Like for example, say you've got a hero whose skills revolve around "charges"-
Passive chance on auto-attack to grant 1 charge.
Ability 1 does light damage and always grants 1 charge.
Ability 2 requires charges and deals good damage.
Ability 3 requires charges and has good utility (stun, blink, shield, w/e).
Ability 4 is an ultimate that grants 3-5 charges and does "something cool".
That gives you a good, well-rounded kit that's approachable for new players, but has adequate depth for veterans because of how the abilities play off eachother. Which order you choose to level them in will affect your hero's playstyle significantly.
Complexity kills maps. Keeping the player's kit tight and intuitive is really important.
Thanks for the advice.
For my first hero, these are the abilities that I currently have set up. (Names are placeholders)
So that is it. Is 7 too many? I don't think so, as the burn and lava skin aren't really damage abilities.
BTW the game is meant to last for around an hour or so, and focuses on heroes.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
Does the burn stack?
What happens if I take this as my first ability? Isn't it pretty useless without the other fire nukes? This mechanic sounds better suited to an ultimate or as a passive side-effect (like for example, making burnt units take X% more fire damage or X% per stack if it stacks).
The hero's kit makes him sound very caster-ish. Do spellcaster heroes in this map tend to tank a lot of melee damage?
Cool.
Beefier version of Ability 2. Could use something to "set it apart". Maybe collapse Ability 3's effect into this one?
Death from above! :D
7 isn't strictly "too many" as long as it's all intuitive, but you don't want to add more abilities just for the sake of adding more abilities, either. You always want to ask yourself: "What role in the hero's kit does this serve? How does it help them do their job better? Does this ability's role overlap with one of the hero's other abilities? Is this something that makes the player feel smart for using it correctly?"
And a whole slew of other questions that will vary depending on the exact nature of your map.
I'd say it really depends on the style of the game. Regardless of whether or not heroes are similar to DOTA, you need to adjust the number of abilities to match your game. For example, I have 2 personal maps that I work on from time to time when I'm not working on larger projects or tutorials (zomg tutorials!? CAN IT REALLY BE!?). In one map I'm giving them 4 hero unique abilities and pulling 3-6 abilities from a pool of 10+ abilities that all heroes share. The result is something nearly like DOTA because the game is fast paced and is less about developing your hero than it is killing things. The other map has 27-36 abilities per hero, but it's also more RPG than "Arena."
Ok, thanks for the advice. The "Seismic" ability is meant to be a beefier version of one of the other hero's abilities.
Yes, he is very much a caster unit. This ability will probably be able to be cast on any friendly unit, or the caster himself.
Also, there are going to be around 10 heroes in the game.
As for the map, it is a bit different than most maps out there. You can play as a TD, micro, macro, hero, or Tug of War. So sometimes you will be fighting AI attacking creeps, and sometimes you will be attacking a microed army. Sometimes you will be trying to kill a wall of towers. It all depends on what your enemy is doing. It is a large map, 256x256 actually. It is perfectly symmetrical on all 4 corners. So ya, that is the basic background of the map.
Also, as you progress through the games, low tier units become useless. There are around 90 units in the game. The first 5 units you start out from, at the highest, have 150 health and do 12 damage. The most powerful unit does 950 damage and has 10,000 health.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
How many players? 4?
how do you choose hero?
nice "all in " concept by the way :)
@houndofbaskerville: Go
lol
There are going to be 8 players. More than one player can play as the same hero, but only one per team, and only 2 total. I think I will have something that allows you to play as a hero you want regardless, so that if people develop a "specialty" they can always play as that hero.
You choose the hero at the beginning of the game. Because I find dialogs rather lame, I will be proabably be doing a hero selction with cameras, etc. (Well, obviously with dialogs to accept them, but you know what I mean.)
Great to be back and part of the community again!
Maybe I'm late, but 6 is the perfect number, imo. Maybe 8 if you include passives, but over 8 is overkilling it, imo.
As I picture it:
Normal abilities should include long-ranged projectiles, ranged aoe and mid to close aoe, as well as defensive or healing abilities. Pretty good and ultimate should follow the same pattern, only that being stronger.