It's a simple question and yet lately I have been asking myself that question more and more often without being able to find a satisfying answer. I've come to create levels based on ideas that I like to explore, or by copying gameplay mechanics of other maps/games and I usually go by a set of principles: lean on a strong story and make gameplay as diverse as possible. As a designer I find myself in the tough position that I learn to love my own maps, even if they are flawed (like a parent loving his special child). So I ask my fellow designers, what is fun for you? What ideas do you have that you think are fun, or others that are not? Why are they not and how could you improve them? Are the rules or just guidelines? Maybe these questions can also help you reflect on your own ideas.
Fun seems to be in the middle of trolling and thinking fun seems to be when you're nuke some ones base in a normal Meele game fun seems to be artistic that shows art in a personality like Star Wars you can see the art and like it fun is when you look at all the cool model in the editor fun is knowing how strong the editor is fun is also thinking you could Rilly make a first person Wasd game where you can open doors and walk in a house and be in the sc2 world fun is also players that like fast paced action or role play run is tower defense with funny towers or cool effects fun ISENT boring. Boring is multiplayer boring is when fun gives up boring is when you make campaigns that are cool but don't bring the characters alive or letting up grades and thing travel to the next map with you fun is when you warp 12 battle cruisers any where because it's cool because you couldent do it at first fun is a wc3 hero fight where an ability is to clone you're self and you're clone do damage to or spawn other heros to fight with you fun is not getting so caught up in you're map that you loose interest and loose imagination and focus on a goal with out seeing past you're goal fun is when it starts to find you so many you're asking the wrong question maby it's not what is fun but how to bring it out. Hope this helps lol fun is also all of you're work being viewed in seconds.
I had hoped for a more down-to-earth discussion, specifically about map-making, but I can see how people might view my question as strange.
Let's take one of your ideas then: "wc3 hero fight where an ability is to clone you're self and you're clone do damage to or spawn other heros". I assume that means a hero can clone himself and all clones can attack or clone themselves as well. If you were a game/level designer and brought this idea to a meeting, and your boss asked you to explain why that would be fun, what would you say?
where an ability is to clone you're self and you're clone do damage to or spawn other heros". I assume that means a hero can clone himself and all clones can attack or clone themselves as well.
Fun is entirely subjective, but there is one thing that I've learned over the years that is much less subjective and that's the idea of "Wasting your time." Most players will agree on what wastes their time and what doesn't, though some may just not care that much. With this in mind, I constantly ask the question of "Is this a waste of my time?" and the answer can vary. I can sometimes end up cutting a huge portion of my maps if I ask this question. For example, I'm building building a level and I have several similar fights with the same kind of enemies, let's say marines and firebats. I have maybe 3 of these fights in a row and they're all about the same in strategy and results. When I ask this question, my answer is "Perhaps it does, since I'm repeating the same process several times in a row." I end up cutting one and moving the other to a very different part of the level to spice things up, make the player recall how they handled the fight, perhaps they even improve the second time or it could even throw them off guard. Sometimes, repetition can be a pro rather than a con if done correctly and if it's the right situation to do it in, but that's what I check first.
I've even asked this question for other various design choices, like shops. Do I even bother adding in a shop? Why can't I cut out the shopping part and just provide the player with what they could shop for? I've once had a mission that took an hour to complete that got cut down in the end to about 15 minutes from asking myself this question. There are other things that are involved in making fun, but I find this to be a fairly big one as it can help maintain the fun parts and cut out the extra junk you don't really need.
Edit: I just realized a much better example of what would be a before and after asking the question of "Does this waste my time?" Let's say you want to build a level where you want to encourage exploration since you may think it's fun to explore and discover new things, many would agree. In version 1, you place a coin at just about every corner of a linear pathway, completing objectives along the way. Collecting every coin gives you a bonus towards the end of the level, maybe you get a nuke gun, and you get to use it for the last few fights. Seems like a waste of time to be forced to go out of your way to get every single coin just to play with a gun at the end, plus there's not much exploration if the level is linear.
If we were to reduce the time wasted and improve the fun of the level, we'd first of all, make the level non-linear to make exploration an actual thing. From there, you could perhaps place the coins in interesting places, perhaps in secret areas, perhaps inside of cool environments, or plainly visible inside of a puzzle room, whatever you want the player to be encouraged to explore. To add to the fun, you just give the player the gun to start with and make it a part of exploration and maybe the reward is extra story instead.
The points I just made in this example are a bit on the extreme side, but I've legitimately seen these kinds of mistakes made in games before. Hope this was maybe a little more helpful.
Maby I did make a scatter brain post lol well if my boss asked me to explain why it is fun because if it's a survival game I could clone my self and or even have my clone able to cast the same abilities or different ones like maby I split my souls in half to light and dark clone able to eightee have different abilities or the same and able to spawn other heros as in spawning my henchmen or a revive for my other half of my clone or a combining and how it is fun if I had a survival rpg or a clash of 2 teams just to fight with abilities but it doesn't seem like you're aiming for fun still you seem like you want a certain thing to be fun be more specific and I'll give some to you.
Pretty subjective question. Let's start with who your target audience is. Adults and kids will be pretty different. And of course you can break things down more from there.
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It's a simple question and yet lately I have been asking myself that question more and more often without being able to find a satisfying answer. I've come to create levels based on ideas that I like to explore, or by copying gameplay mechanics of other maps/games and I usually go by a set of principles: lean on a strong story and make gameplay as diverse as possible. As a designer I find myself in the tough position that I learn to love my own maps, even if they are flawed (like a parent loving his special child). So I ask my fellow designers, what is fun for you? What ideas do you have that you think are fun, or others that are not? Why are they not and how could you improve them? Are the rules or just guidelines? Maybe these questions can also help you reflect on your own ideas.
Fun seems to be in the middle of trolling and thinking fun seems to be when you're nuke some ones base in a normal Meele game fun seems to be artistic that shows art in a personality like Star Wars you can see the art and like it fun is when you look at all the cool model in the editor fun is knowing how strong the editor is fun is also thinking you could Rilly make a first person Wasd game where you can open doors and walk in a house and be in the sc2 world fun is also players that like fast paced action or role play run is tower defense with funny towers or cool effects fun ISENT boring. Boring is multiplayer boring is when fun gives up boring is when you make campaigns that are cool but don't bring the characters alive or letting up grades and thing travel to the next map with you fun is when you warp 12 battle cruisers any where because it's cool because you couldent do it at first fun is a wc3 hero fight where an ability is to clone you're self and you're clone do damage to or spawn other heros to fight with you fun is not getting so caught up in you're map that you loose interest and loose imagination and focus on a goal with out seeing past you're goal fun is when it starts to find you so many you're asking the wrong question maby it's not what is fun but how to bring it out. Hope this helps lol fun is also all of you're work being viewed in seconds.
I had hoped for a more down-to-earth discussion, specifically about map-making, but I can see how people might view my question as strange.
Let's take one of your ideas then: "wc3 hero fight where an ability is to clone you're self and you're clone do damage to or spawn other heros". I assume that means a hero can clone himself and all clones can attack or clone themselves as well. If you were a game/level designer and brought this idea to a meeting, and your boss asked you to explain why that would be fun, what would you say?
@DOOMEDEARTH: Go
Wow, a wall of text. Please, for next time word edit your posts so that others can read them.
Hey I just tried to make sense of what he wrote^^
Oh well, let's just forget this and watch a video of Jayborino playing my map:
Fun is entirely subjective, but there is one thing that I've learned over the years that is much less subjective and that's the idea of "Wasting your time." Most players will agree on what wastes their time and what doesn't, though some may just not care that much. With this in mind, I constantly ask the question of "Is this a waste of my time?" and the answer can vary. I can sometimes end up cutting a huge portion of my maps if I ask this question. For example, I'm building building a level and I have several similar fights with the same kind of enemies, let's say marines and firebats. I have maybe 3 of these fights in a row and they're all about the same in strategy and results. When I ask this question, my answer is "Perhaps it does, since I'm repeating the same process several times in a row." I end up cutting one and moving the other to a very different part of the level to spice things up, make the player recall how they handled the fight, perhaps they even improve the second time or it could even throw them off guard. Sometimes, repetition can be a pro rather than a con if done correctly and if it's the right situation to do it in, but that's what I check first.
I've even asked this question for other various design choices, like shops. Do I even bother adding in a shop? Why can't I cut out the shopping part and just provide the player with what they could shop for? I've once had a mission that took an hour to complete that got cut down in the end to about 15 minutes from asking myself this question. There are other things that are involved in making fun, but I find this to be a fairly big one as it can help maintain the fun parts and cut out the extra junk you don't really need.
Edit: I just realized a much better example of what would be a before and after asking the question of "Does this waste my time?" Let's say you want to build a level where you want to encourage exploration since you may think it's fun to explore and discover new things, many would agree. In version 1, you place a coin at just about every corner of a linear pathway, completing objectives along the way. Collecting every coin gives you a bonus towards the end of the level, maybe you get a nuke gun, and you get to use it for the last few fights. Seems like a waste of time to be forced to go out of your way to get every single coin just to play with a gun at the end, plus there's not much exploration if the level is linear.
If we were to reduce the time wasted and improve the fun of the level, we'd first of all, make the level non-linear to make exploration an actual thing. From there, you could perhaps place the coins in interesting places, perhaps in secret areas, perhaps inside of cool environments, or plainly visible inside of a puzzle room, whatever you want the player to be encouraged to explore. To add to the fun, you just give the player the gun to start with and make it a part of exploration and maybe the reward is extra story instead.
The points I just made in this example are a bit on the extreme side, but I've legitimately seen these kinds of mistakes made in games before. Hope this was maybe a little more helpful.
Maby I did make a scatter brain post lol well if my boss asked me to explain why it is fun because if it's a survival game I could clone my self and or even have my clone able to cast the same abilities or different ones like maby I split my souls in half to light and dark clone able to eightee have different abilities or the same and able to spawn other heros as in spawning my henchmen or a revive for my other half of my clone or a combining and how it is fun if I had a survival rpg or a clash of 2 teams just to fight with abilities but it doesn't seem like you're aiming for fun still you seem like you want a certain thing to be fun be more specific and I'll give some to you.
Pretty subjective question. Let's start with who your target audience is. Adults and kids will be pretty different. And of course you can break things down more from there.