oh please.. eternal your smart ass posting is sooo cool. seriously, im freezing here. awesome dude.
come on, explain it to me in the harshest words you can possibly find. i beg you!
Well, I was correct. The people of Sc2mapster have indeed given you some good advice. Lets hope you can take all of that and use it to your advantage.
I dont really want to get involved, but if you want my view/opinion as a "player/observer"(Aka Im not speaking from my stance of being a moderator) then I`d say:
1. Your avatar is stupid and annoys me. It screams "retard". (Again, just my perception).
2. Your english is terrible, yes. That is a huge disadvantage if you ever hope to lead a team or recruit anyone to help you. (Why dont you use capital letters at the start of your sentences? ffs). I almost always skip reading any thread or post you create. I cant take it seriously.
3. You try too hard.
Last but not least, Your map/s are dreadfully boring and lame. (Player feedback here)
I played HeroWars. Seriously?. You think creating something like that qualifies you as being a "mapper" ?. No, maybe in the days of Brood War, my friend.
I played the map, It was just so terrible that it was pointless to further waste my time by giving and relaying any feedback. Know what I mean?.
If it was great, I`d happily point out flaws and ways to improve it, but if something is just so average, it kills the incentive. Human nature mostly.
If you genuinely created awesome maps, I would consider your post Legitimate concern. Not the case however.
So yes, take the advice in this thread and set your expectations fairly based against the quality of your work(The likes of which I can replicate in less than 24 hours).
Apologies if it was harsh. Being honest from a `viewers` perspective of you.
Good luck
Edit: The gist of my reply stems from your comment: "i start to be really pissed off by the SC2 community and especially the mappers part of it."
Here is my advice. Post a video. The ONLY reason why Na^i Zombies got so much feedback is because everyone knows what the real Na^i Zombies is. Honestly, I don't have the time to go and particularly play one specific map that takes 5 hours just to get started. I just don't. Try using EU map night to get the game popular, but I swear, make sure it is fun first. If it is not then well, you lost your chance.
etc etc etc but what is good about that is that you know he is telling the truth. Being his natural honest personality, he has no problem telling you your map sucks. (I have not played it so I have no idea. I am NA anyways). Other people will say "Oh, it is ok", when they actually might have the same opinion.
Just know this. If it hurts, it is productive. If it does not, it is not. If you get feedback that does not hurt you in any way, what is it doing for you? Nothing. "Oh I love the way you did this". The only thing that does is, nothing. I mean, you leave it the way it is. If someone says "This part of the map sucks", then that is good. Ok, getting off topic. Back to topic.
Honesty time here. It even hurts me to say this stuff, but I won't sugar coat it at all.
I opened your thread and was immediately bored. The photos you posted looked like terrible terrain and a very generic layout.
Your English, as stated, turned me away from your map. If you don't know English well, have someone proofread your important threads before posting them. I would be glad to do that if you would like me to.
The information posted was... bland. You stated how you use elements similarly to EleTD. That is very generic. The details given seemed to be like my final exams: A bunch of random facts that mean nothing unless you know the bigger picuture.
I agree with EternalWraith on this one. Your icon bothers me. Anyone trying to act cool just plain irritates me. (Besides tacos. They are cool)
You try hard, but you try hard in the wrong areas. I could be wrong, but what have you done for other people? I am sorry if I am mistaken, but I have not seen you answering a ton of questions that I'm sure you could answer. I know that I got a team together as a thanks for trying to be as helpful as I can.
I think that is it. Other than that, videos are awesome for this stuff.
Oh and one more thing. Post what makes your map unique and interesting at the very top of the page. "It use element" doesn't cut it. "Burn through your enemies with the power of flames, but do not be too cocky, for the force of the waves is close behind!". That is just an example and probably doesn't make sense, but you know what I mean? Get some attention grabbers, but don't overuse them.
Good luck man, I know how it feels. Also, hanging in the "Looking for Custom Game" chat channel is great for finding testers.
Edit: EternalWraith: Insulting a moderator is not advisable. Ive removed that bit of text. Persistence will result in a warning.
You Know What Alpha Means, Right? Did Anyone Say That It Is Finished? I Need Feedback On Features And Things To Add - That Is The Point! Do You Get That?
I Think The Problem Are Exactly People Like You, Trying To Cover Their Own "Stupidity" With This Kind Of "Coolness Acting" In A Forum, And Then Judging People By Their "Looks" (Lol, Avatar - Seriously? What About Yours?) Or Their Typing. (Sorry Tenthousand Times That Im Not A Native English Speaker, Nor Care As Long As People Are Able To Understand What I Am Trying To Tell Them, Mister Perfect)
no seriously.
what you are doing is not giving feedback, it is being a wannabe cool guy flaming something just because you think you are "better"
these are your reasons for not reading my threads, posts or playing my maps - and i say thank you, because i dont want someone like you talking to me about anything, may it be mapping, the weather or whatever.
i never said anywhere that my maps are awesome, that they have groundbreaking ideas in it (except stargate that was "a cool idea" and the feedback for that map prove it) - just that i want feedback! you know what feedback means, right?
it isnt only me that does not get any feedback by posting a public thread here or anywhere else. also i am 100% sure that it isnt my bad english or my avatar that makes people think "oh look, this guy is probably a douchebag, i dont give him and feedback"
not everyone cant be as perfect as you, releasing tons of awesome 100% perfect polished maps (oh wait..)
it is still the community that does not gives a fuck about any maps at all. and i just want to know why. (most definitly not the reasons you stated.)
you are now with mr. nazgul the second guy that has a problem with my english. actually i had a issue with it myself while we were working on Stargate Universe and asked my Teammates about it, and all of them told me that my english is abolutley fine and understandable. not perfect but okay. kinda weird.
i know that it sucks, but tell me that you dont understand what i am writing. i have seen people around here that type worse - like 10 times worse and they still get any feedback posts. there are people posting walls of text, using literally no punctuation at all - at least i try that and i always make my posts "readable" in the formatting.
do you really want to tell me my AVATAR is the reason for noone replying to my feedback thread? i mean, seriously? do you know how stupid that actually is? whats wrong about that dude? shall i change it to something really really internet-lolcatz-funny? or some lord of the ring themed thing? will that make me look more "professional"?
i dont want to attack you, i appreciate your opinion but this is just hilarious.
this is definitly not the reason for me not getting feedback on my map.
what i have done for others? do you mean like helped anyone? do we now get medals and honor awards for helping someone and showing them like "oh look, that one helped 100 people, hes a cool dude - i look at his map and see if its playable" ?
i definitly helped people with problems, while the beta was running i received several pm´s about things in the maps i've done, about my stargate map and how i achieved things in it, and i answered them all.
about the videos and informations delivered in that thread - okay.
i will take your advice on that and try to show more detail like ingame scenes or videos. also i will work on the posts describing the map.
hope you dont feel offended by my reply but i really dont think this has anything to do with the lack of my english skills or my choosen avatar.
but hey, i will try, i think about changing the avatar and triple check posts in the future and comparing the results afterwards.
yeah, actually it was taco´s post. i dont give anything about the nazgul.
if seriously someone with a opinion worth to care about thinks that was the reason why noone replied to my threads.. as stupid as this sounds.. i'll give it a try.
You need to settle down. Everyone here, even if doesn't seem that way, is trying to help you. We would not take the time to respond if we were not. You have no idea how much impact an icon makes. Did you know that without even hearing a video or anything, I just assumed Eiviyn was a girl. No, it is not stupid what I am saying, it is the (although sad) truth.
You need to think about the things that makes people interested in a post. Visuals are key, and attention grabbers. Harry Potter (the book) is just a wall of text, but it has done pretty well. It is about what you put in that wall of text that counts. (Especially at the beginning).
Also, I am disappointed in your response. I tried to help you out, and I get attacked. In fact, I got in trouble from EternalWraith because of it!. Do I actually think that he is a dick head? No, I was trying to make you feel better because I thought you might be offended by his post. And what, you come back and attack me for trying to take your side? Are you kidding me? You, as a person, are now starting to tick me off. Listen to our advice or don't, but realize that calling EternalWraith (or me for that matter) stupid makes you look like the idiot.
Now back to being friendly. I wish you luck man. I wish you luck that your map gets feedback, and I wish you luck you figure out how to make it happen.
I thought animated avatars were against the rules. Did they change that?
And one more thing, I'm surprised my earlier reply wasn't the subject of more debate.
And one more thing. EternalWraith is right. It takes a lot to get noticed. No one starts out "interesting". And no one is interested in helping uninteresting people or projects. It's boring. The only thing you can really do is get interesting on your own and then come back when you have something. Most successful SC2 maps were from people who spent a lot of time in WC3 making maps. Their first WC3 maps were also not successful.
It takes a long time to learn how to design a game. It's not easy. It has nothing to do with how well you know the editor. It's simply a matter of being able to put yourself outside your own head when you make decisions. You have to be able to envision yourself as a player, not as a creator. The worst thing you can do is get attached to your own ideas. Learning how to do this takes a lot of time and a lot of failure. You have to keep failing before you realize why your attempts are bad, and what you can do to correct them.
Oh and one more thing. Check out my signature. This isn't an editor question thread, but the same rules should apply to the responses the people answering your question get.
And also I need you to understand something about your English. Perfect is not necessary, and no one expects it to be. It is not that we can't understand what you are saying. We can. That is not the problem. Once again, I am sorry for not sugar coating this, but it makes you look like an idiot. That with the combination of your (old) avatar makes it even worse. Really sorry, but it is the truth.
I can't quite speak for your maps as I've not played them, but you really are proving EW's point. Calling EW someone who just 'wants to be cool' is beyond ignorant, as he actually fairly rarely responds to most high-profile topics, and if he does it's generally a small reply - that's not exactly the way to attract attention and be cool. Your capitalization 'joke' didn't help either in showing your maturity, as EW's concern was valid. People use the "my English is bad" excuse too often. You capitalize the start of sentences in pretty much every language. If you just can't be arsed to even do things like that, then why should we be arsed taking your post seriously?
Alongside that, you're missing his point completely. He's saying that some maps are so mediocre by default that it's not worth giving feedback on them and getting them polished. You can make some lame ass TD map and say you need feedback, but you can only use that as an excuse for the map being crappy up to a specific point. Some maps are just so retardly bad that no amount of feedback is going to improve them. At best, giving that feedback will turn the map into a really well polished lame ass TD map.
Now once again; I haven't played your maps, but that is the point EW is trying to make. That your maps are so boring and unimaginative that you shouldn't even begin complaining about a lack of feedback. In a nutshell, he's saying that someone who makes a simple drawing shouldn't go and yell that he can't get funding to continue his project when the project IS a simple drawing - you can't complain about external factors until your project itself is actually something good. There's only so much that 'feedback' will do.
For the third and last time: I haven't played your maps, but in this instance I see his point quite clearly. Due to the earlier named points, you come across as some no-skill whining lazy ass person rather than someone who actually has a valid concern for mapping. Which is why people (like EW) don't feel like taking you seriously.
taco, like i said it was not my intention to attack you in any way. if you read my reply to nebuli2´s post you'll see that i in the end took your post and "accepted" your opinion, even if i still think making the avatar a reason for my problem is totally nonsense.
it may have an impact on how to look at someone, but definitly not in this case!
but whatever i dont want to discuss this any further..
about the answer to eternal.. i wanted him to reply and i knew what his post would basically look like. obviously not the details, but that kind of forum user is just predictable and most of his post is totally off-topic and idiotic. not all of it, but most - besides that, a moderator and the "retard" flame.. okay, why not?
@Vexal actually that avatar restriction has been removed as far as i know. animated avatars, if they are not too annoying are allowed.
about the other things.. it is not really about the being noticed thing, it is about being a part of an community.
i mean, even if im now not allowed to call myself a mapper because some pros might redo my maps in 24hrs, this is a mapping community, and there is a feedback thread - for what if these members of this community dont care about anything but themself?
@Mozared
the thing is that HE was missing the point of this thread.. he talked about my other map - i know that it sucks, i know that it is unfinished, i god damn know that it is just anothet tug of war map and just a frickin remake.
but this thread was about the "how to" getting feedback for the tankwars project and why noone replies there - but not one word about it.
all he did was flaming at me because that map project that is not even close to be an beta (thats why i called it ALPHA) isnt finished and sucks additional to my bad english and my so obviosuly stupid avatar. was this the reason or point for this thread? no, it was not.
how the hell can someone say that a map isnt worth playing if he never actually played it? could you explain that to me?
because my FIRST "big" project still sucks, in its ALPHA state, because of that im an idiot that does not know anything on mapping, every map that i create will suck and isnt worth giving a try? because my avatar lets me look dumb?
exactly that is the point - a feedback thread is to make players play your map and get feedback, right? you now want to tell me EVERYONE on this forum thinks, because of my avatar, because of my lack of english skills and because of my not-finished wc3 remake map, that this map is not worth testing at least once?
And one more thing. Insulting people is a big deal. It doesn't help anything. These posts will get you attention for now, but they're not going to help you as a developer at all. Ever.
And one more thing. I already said you can't be attached to your ideas. But you didn't seem to listen. So I'll repeat it. You can't argue that an idea is good or that people should enjoy it. An idea only has so much potential, no matter how polished it is.
You're also putting words into peoples' mouths. No one's saying you're an idiot because of your project.
And one more thing. You're asking for feedback the wrong way. If you weren't given feedback naturally from people seeing threads about your map, then you're not going to get feedback you want any other way until you change something. People have to be drawn to it without you shoving it in their faces (like you are now). If people find themselves compelled to comment, they will comment. Unfortunately, in your case, it appears that none have.
So, you have to change something. You can't just blame the community.
And one more thing. Don't count on useful feedback from others. There's no real point. You should have your own ideas. Instead, you should gauge others' desire to provide feedback in the first place. I get emails all the time about my maps, and there are pages and pages of comments on my map pages on this website. But most things the people actually have to say are not useful to me. But it is useful to know that people have anything to say in the first place. There are times when I'll post my ideas or progress, and no one will say anything. I take that in itself as the feedback I was looking for. I might make a second post just to rule out timing and unlucky lack of exposure. If no one really comments, then I'll just assume that means the idea was bad or needs more work.
And one more thing. I also am terrible at presenting my ideas. I get much better feedback from play-testing (also my previous maps have good popularity standing, which too is feedback). I've made videos showcasing my new project and everyone ignores and hates them. I suck at making videos. It's hard to tell whether my ideas are poor, or my ability to present the ideas in a forum thread is poor.
EDIT: And one more thing. These are all things you have to figure out yourself over time. None of these things come natural to anyone.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree. You are missing the point. It is not about the map, it is not about the community, it is not about the English and it is not about the "stupid" avatar. It is about the impressions that they give, and the effects that they have on the people viewing them. There is a reason why the phrase "Don't judge a book by it's cover" was invented. It is human nature to assume things by the way something appears. It is your job to make that cover as appealing as possible.
On the other hand, listen to Vexal. Do not get too attached to your ideas, and do not get offended when people do not like them. It is your job to make something truly amazing, and then balance it with an awesome "cover".
I gave you my opinion as a mere "observer". I told you that. Myself being a moderator thus meant nothing in that instance. You think I was just being cruel and picking on you. Thats ok, but the reality of the situation is I was being honest you from what I think about you.
You just dont seem to know how the world works. Yes, people can judge you on your avatar and build associations with it. Of course.
Thats life. I actually found your previous avatar to be extremely offensive.
Should that(or your english or etc) influence myself testing out your maps or forming an opinion of you?(joining your team etc etc), In an ideal world no. However this is real life, and how you market/present yourself is very important.
Remember, Your OP incited my reply. You came across aggressive and almost insulting towards this "our" community. You stated you were "pissed" off at the community and its players. You make thread/viewership count comparisons between your thread and EleTD, and use that as an argument?. C`mon?..
You have no right to be angry with us or the players for your own failure to comprehend and understand the nature of things.
Lets see what else "i dont want to force anyone to play my map, but at least trying it once and writing down one or two lines of feedback - is that too much?"
Yea, actually it is too much. You actually contradict yourself by implying that we should try it atleast once. My question is, Why should we?.
Read what Vexal posted.
In all cases, You must make US desire to play your map. Its your job to create that incentive. Sure, some people wont mind testing it out for fun or whatever, but the majority of us and players will need good reason dont you think?
"but i start to aks myself - why? why would i waste my time into creating more maps if noone cares? not even a big mapping community seems to care about anything their mappers do except well-known map-remakes with a already huge own community behind them."
No one is forcing you to map. If you cant deal with its pressures, Best to quit now. Believe it or not, It actually takes much hard work and effort to make people care and to even build communities around your work. You think its simple?. No;p. Its a lot of hard work.
Depending on how much attention you want your map to have, You`re going to have to take all the right steps.
All of us. All mappers , We all work extremely hard and face the same problems as you. Creating videos, websites, getting skilled people working with you etc etc. Its tough work.
Your post was an insult to this community, and I took it very serious(As Ive cared about this community for a very long time). You need much introspection.
You would be unwise to discount the importance of things like punctuation, avatar choice, etc. When you put up a thread for feedback, you are essentially making a presentation to the reader and trying to entice them to provide you with what you need(in this case, playing your map, and by extension, feedback.)
I browse this forum quite a bit, and read your posts. Again, being candid here, there was nothing particularly enticing or exciting about your map. The typos, slurred sentences, etc. EVEN if they are not your fault are off-putting. It immediately makes your post seem amateurish. A post is essentially and advertisement, and your ad wasn't very good. Visual content(ie movies or screen shots - what you had wasn't particularly good) help too.
because i called him stupid after he quasi called me an retard, i am the bad guy? okay...
i never said my idea is great or anything - thats why i want feedback for that map, to see if people actually like it.
but how if noone plays it? so there is a mapping community with a forum called
"Map Feedback - Made a cool map and want feedback from your players? Post here!"
and that is still the point and wont change - nobody does post there if they dont know your name. the question still is, why? it is a mapping community, right?
and i know that the answer is not "because your avatar lets you look stupid, because your english sucks, because noone likes your maps" - sorry.
about the "idiot because of you projects".. that was replied to this quote
Quote:
He's saying that some maps are so mediocre by default that it's not worth giving feedback on them and getting them polished. You can make some lame ass TD map and say you need feedback, but you can only use that as an excuse for the map being crappy up to a specific point. Some maps are just so retardly bad that no amount of feedback is going to improve them.
the point of this thread was a map eternal never played, what makes this then? he judges that map because he played another one of my maps, and because that one sucked he wont see any reason to try another of my maps. that is how i understood the whole thing, and that is why i am that "enraging".
@taco i would never be offended if someone does not like my maps or my ideas - but again, this here was like "that guy´s map sucked so he is a bad mapper" to me.
[quote]Remember, Your OP incited my reply. You came across aggressive and almost insulting towards this "our" community. You stated you were "pissed" off at the community and its players. [quote]
because the thing still is, someone could think that a mapping community has members that care about maps (and not only their own maps). and that is not the fact - thats why the sc2 mapping community in general starts to annoy me. and that is why i started to insult it. i am sorry if that offended you, but i just dont like it.
the comparsion was there to state the monopoly a known mapper has.. obviously i would never compare any of my maps to something like eletd.
it was just his fame generating tons of people replying - and that is another thing that really sucks and helps nobody..
about the good reason, how would you know if a map has this good reason to play if you wont test it? screenshots or videos cant be the answer here..
and in the end, i am allowed to call myself a mapper now, yes?
however i will take back the personal insult of calling you stupid and agree on the fact that i enraged a bit too much, but still i couldnt make anyone understand my point yet.
I never said you were a bad guy. I said that insulting members or acting defensive won't help. It will give off the impression that you can't take objective feedback. It's stressful trying to give feedback when the person you're feeding back takes it personally. Most of the time, once a person realizes that feedback will be taken personally, they'll simply cease to give feedback to that person.
the point of this thread was a map eternal never played, what makes this then? he judges that map because he played another one of my maps, and because that one sucked he wont see any reason to try another of my maps. that is how i understood the whole thing, and that is why i am that "enraging".
NO. The 'point' of EW's reply was him basically telling you "I can't agree with what you say because I can't take you serious as a mapper". The fact that he disliked one of your maps was only ONE of the many reasons for that. He (and later others, me among them) mentioned plenty of other reasons, like your avatar and your typing style.
The reason nobody is really discussing your 'topic' of "why does nobody give feedback" is because nobody took your opening post seriously. Imagine if someone who is really cruel to animals makes a post on a forum with the topic "Don't you hate it that there's animal cops who lock people up for mistreating animals?. No one will take him seriously because he's being a hypocrite argueing a point he shouldn't be argueing. Instead of whining about the animal cops, the guy should simply not be cruel to animals - HIM changing something will solve his problem, while he is expecting the world to adjust to what he says so he can get away with his cruel behaviour. This is an extreme example, but in this case, that's you: you are complaining about not getting feedback, and people like EW are responding "that's because people can't take you serious as a mapper as there's plenty wrong with you and your maps that you ought to try and fix *before* complaining about external factors". He's not simply bashing you because of one map.
As for your actual topic - you keep saying that 'the community' should care about maps as a whole, but you need to understand that not everybody feels like testing random maps, especially not if they feel even ahead of testing that the map isnt going to be worth it. That said, it's simply untrue that you "cannot get feedback" - we regularly test all sorts of maps on the EU map night, and you can easily ask to have your map added to the playlist so we can play it through and give comments. The fact that you didn't know "getting feedback" was as easy as that is your own fault for not exploring the subject well enough, and here you are saying you are "pissed off at the community".
Additonally, you keep talking about a 'monopoly' for the 'known mapper', but you're still forgetting to factor in the things EW and Vexal have been mentioning - getting to the position of being a 'known mapper' requires WORK. Some of that work is actively seeking testers and getting your map tested. How do you think Karawasa got Elemental TD to where it is now? You are forgetting that getting to the position of being a 'known mapper' requires just as much effort in finding testers are you are currently facing; it's really not a case of those people having some kind of 'monopoly' on testing.
You just aren't very good. So, why would people want to play your map? What's the USP of your maps, besides "it's inferior to that other copy"? Especially the people that might actually give you incredible feedback (Malu, TKC, EW, Moza, Tomura, Otixa, Eiviyn, me, other people I can't call from my brain at 4am) are not interested in this kind of stuff. Look at other projects around, they have a far higher quality level than your maps and are a lot more interesting. Or to be precise: You are number 183234 or something of the many people who would like to become famous by making a map. Well, sucks to be you, because it ain't that damn easy. Lots of factors are involved to actually make something people want to play. And a lot more to make the map known. And sometimes those factors are just goddamn downright crazy (Nexus Wars).
So... get better and make something that actually is worth playing.
That's all I can say to that.
Oh and EleTD has a huge community from WC3 which is pretty loyal, so no wonder Ka... Kara... Kasawara... Ihavenoideahowthefuckheevergotthatnamespelledcorretly ... gets a lot of posts while you are viewed as someone, who tries to get a piece of his cake.
Then the virus is spreading precisely on schedule.. uhhh..?? what am i saying?.. <= [ignore please]
Well, I was correct. The people of Sc2mapster have indeed given you some good advice. Lets hope you can take all of that and use it to your advantage.
I dont really want to get involved, but if you want my view/opinion as a "player/observer"(Aka Im not speaking from my stance of being a moderator) then I`d say:
1. Your avatar is stupid and annoys me. It screams "retard". (Again, just my perception).
2. Your english is terrible, yes. That is a huge disadvantage if you ever hope to lead a team or recruit anyone to help you. (Why dont you use capital letters at the start of your sentences? ffs). I almost always skip reading any thread or post you create. I cant take it seriously.
3. You try too hard.
Last but not least, Your map/s are dreadfully boring and lame. (Player feedback here)
I played HeroWars. Seriously?. You think creating something like that qualifies you as being a "mapper" ?. No, maybe in the days of Brood War, my friend.
I played the map, It was just so terrible that it was pointless to further waste my time by giving and relaying any feedback. Know what I mean?.
If it was great, I`d happily point out flaws and ways to improve it, but if something is just so average, it kills the incentive. Human nature mostly.
If you genuinely created awesome maps, I would consider your post Legitimate concern. Not the case however.
So yes, take the advice in this thread and set your expectations fairly based against the quality of your work(The likes of which I can replicate in less than 24 hours).
Apologies if it was harsh. Being honest from a `viewers` perspective of you.
Good luck
Edit: The gist of my reply stems from your comment:
"i start to be really pissed off by the SC2 community and especially the mappers part of it."
Here is my advice. Post a video. The ONLY reason why Na^i Zombies got so much feedback is because everyone knows what the real Na^i Zombies is. Honestly, I don't have the time to go and particularly play one specific map that takes 5 hours just to get started. I just don't. Try using EU map night to get the game popular, but I swear, make sure it is fun first. If it is not then well, you lost your chance.
etc etc etc but what is good about that is that you know he is telling the truth. Being his natural honest personality, he has no problem telling you your map sucks. (I have not played it so I have no idea. I am NA anyways). Other people will say "Oh, it is ok", when they actually might have the same opinion.
Just know this. If it hurts, it is productive. If it does not, it is not. If you get feedback that does not hurt you in any way, what is it doing for you? Nothing. "Oh I love the way you did this". The only thing that does is, nothing. I mean, you leave it the way it is. If someone says "This part of the map sucks", then that is good. Ok, getting off topic. Back to topic.
Honesty time here. It even hurts me to say this stuff, but I won't sugar coat it at all.
Good luck man, I know how it feels. Also, hanging in the "Looking for Custom Game" chat channel is great for finding testers.
Edit: EternalWraith: Insulting a moderator is not advisable. Ive removed that bit of text. Persistence will result in a warning.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
@EternalWraith: Go
:)
You Know What Alpha Means, Right? Did Anyone Say That It Is Finished? I Need Feedback On Features And Things To Add - That Is The Point! Do You Get That?
I Think The Problem Are Exactly People Like You, Trying To Cover Their Own "Stupidity" With This Kind Of "Coolness Acting" In A Forum, And Then Judging People By Their "Looks" (Lol, Avatar - Seriously? What About Yours?) Or Their Typing. (Sorry Tenthousand Times That Im Not A Native English Speaker, Nor Care As Long As People Are Able To Understand What I Am Trying To Tell Them, Mister Perfect)
no seriously.
what you are doing is not giving feedback, it is being a wannabe cool guy flaming something just because you think you are "better"
these are your reasons for not reading my threads, posts or playing my maps - and i say thank you, because i dont want someone like you talking to me about anything, may it be mapping, the weather or whatever.
i never said anywhere that my maps are awesome, that they have groundbreaking ideas in it (except stargate that was "a cool idea" and the feedback for that map prove it) - just that i want feedback! you know what feedback means, right?
it isnt only me that does not get any feedback by posting a public thread here or anywhere else. also i am 100% sure that it isnt my bad english or my avatar that makes people think "oh look, this guy is probably a douchebag, i dont give him and feedback"
not everyone cant be as perfect as you, releasing tons of awesome 100% perfect polished maps (oh wait..)
it is still the community that does not gives a fuck about any maps at all. and i just want to know why. (most definitly not the reasons you stated.)
@TacoManStan: Go
you are now with mr. nazgul the second guy that has a problem with my english. actually i had a issue with it myself while we were working on Stargate Universe and asked my Teammates about it, and all of them told me that my english is abolutley fine and understandable. not perfect but okay. kinda weird.
i know that it sucks, but tell me that you dont understand what i am writing. i have seen people around here that type worse - like 10 times worse and they still get any feedback posts. there are people posting walls of text, using literally no punctuation at all - at least i try that and i always make my posts "readable" in the formatting.
do you really want to tell me my AVATAR is the reason for noone replying to my feedback thread? i mean, seriously? do you know how stupid that actually is? whats wrong about that dude? shall i change it to something really really internet-lolcatz-funny? or some lord of the ring themed thing? will that make me look more "professional"?
i dont want to attack you, i appreciate your opinion but this is just hilarious.
this is definitly not the reason for me not getting feedback on my map.
what i have done for others? do you mean like helped anyone? do we now get medals and honor awards for helping someone and showing them like "oh look, that one helped 100 people, hes a cool dude - i look at his map and see if its playable" ?
i definitly helped people with problems, while the beta was running i received several pm´s about things in the maps i've done, about my stargate map and how i achieved things in it, and i answered them all.
about the videos and informations delivered in that thread - okay.
i will take your advice on that and try to show more detail like ingame scenes or videos. also i will work on the posts describing the map.
hope you dont feel offended by my reply but i really dont think this has anything to do with the lack of my english skills or my choosen avatar.
but hey, i will try, i think about changing the avatar and triple check posts in the future and comparing the results afterwards.
@PatchOne: Go
I love how you changed your avatar after reading Eternalwraith's comment.
XD
@Nebuli2: Go
yeah, actually it was taco´s post. i dont give anything about the nazgul.
if seriously someone with a opinion worth to care about thinks that was the reason why noone replied to my threads.. as stupid as this sounds.. i'll give it a try.
@PatchOne: Go
You need to settle down. Everyone here, even if doesn't seem that way, is trying to help you. We would not take the time to respond if we were not. You have no idea how much impact an icon makes. Did you know that without even hearing a video or anything, I just assumed Eiviyn was a girl. No, it is not stupid what I am saying, it is the (although sad) truth.
You need to think about the things that makes people interested in a post. Visuals are key, and attention grabbers. Harry Potter (the book) is just a wall of text, but it has done pretty well. It is about what you put in that wall of text that counts. (Especially at the beginning).
Also, I am disappointed in your response. I tried to help you out, and I get attacked. In fact, I got in trouble from EternalWraith because of it!. Do I actually think that he is a dick head? No, I was trying to make you feel better because I thought you might be offended by his post. And what, you come back and attack me for trying to take your side? Are you kidding me? You, as a person, are now starting to tick me off. Listen to our advice or don't, but realize that calling EternalWraith (or me for that matter) stupid makes you look like the idiot.
Now back to being friendly. I wish you luck man. I wish you luck that your map gets feedback, and I wish you luck you figure out how to make it happen.
PS: I see you changed your icon. I like it.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
I thought animated avatars were against the rules. Did they change that?
And one more thing, I'm surprised my earlier reply wasn't the subject of more debate.
And one more thing. EternalWraith is right. It takes a lot to get noticed. No one starts out "interesting". And no one is interested in helping uninteresting people or projects. It's boring. The only thing you can really do is get interesting on your own and then come back when you have something. Most successful SC2 maps were from people who spent a lot of time in WC3 making maps. Their first WC3 maps were also not successful.
It takes a long time to learn how to design a game. It's not easy. It has nothing to do with how well you know the editor. It's simply a matter of being able to put yourself outside your own head when you make decisions. You have to be able to envision yourself as a player, not as a creator. The worst thing you can do is get attached to your own ideas. Learning how to do this takes a lot of time and a lot of failure. You have to keep failing before you realize why your attempts are bad, and what you can do to correct them.
Oh and one more thing. Check out my signature. This isn't an editor question thread, but the same rules should apply to the responses the people answering your question get.
And also I need you to understand something about your English. Perfect is not necessary, and no one expects it to be. It is not that we can't understand what you are saying. We can. That is not the problem. Once again, I am sorry for not sugar coating this, but it makes you look like an idiot. That with the combination of your (old) avatar makes it even worse. Really sorry, but it is the truth.
Once again good luck.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
Patch;
I can't quite speak for your maps as I've not played them, but you really are proving EW's point. Calling EW someone who just 'wants to be cool' is beyond ignorant, as he actually fairly rarely responds to most high-profile topics, and if he does it's generally a small reply - that's not exactly the way to attract attention and be cool. Your capitalization 'joke' didn't help either in showing your maturity, as EW's concern was valid. People use the "my English is bad" excuse too often. You capitalize the start of sentences in pretty much every language. If you just can't be arsed to even do things like that, then why should we be arsed taking your post seriously?
Alongside that, you're missing his point completely. He's saying that some maps are so mediocre by default that it's not worth giving feedback on them and getting them polished. You can make some lame ass TD map and say you need feedback, but you can only use that as an excuse for the map being crappy up to a specific point. Some maps are just so retardly bad that no amount of feedback is going to improve them. At best, giving that feedback will turn the map into a really well polished lame ass TD map.
Now once again; I haven't played your maps, but that is the point EW is trying to make. That your maps are so boring and unimaginative that you shouldn't even begin complaining about a lack of feedback. In a nutshell, he's saying that someone who makes a simple drawing shouldn't go and yell that he can't get funding to continue his project when the project IS a simple drawing - you can't complain about external factors until your project itself is actually something good. There's only so much that 'feedback' will do.
For the third and last time: I haven't played your maps, but in this instance I see his point quite clearly. Due to the earlier named points, you come across as some no-skill whining lazy ass person rather than someone who actually has a valid concern for mapping. Which is why people (like EW) don't feel like taking you seriously.
taco, like i said it was not my intention to attack you in any way. if you read my reply to nebuli2´s post you'll see that i in the end took your post and "accepted" your opinion, even if i still think making the avatar a reason for my problem is totally nonsense.
it may have an impact on how to look at someone, but definitly not in this case!
but whatever i dont want to discuss this any further..
about the answer to eternal.. i wanted him to reply and i knew what his post would basically look like. obviously not the details, but that kind of forum user is just predictable and most of his post is totally off-topic and idiotic. not all of it, but most - besides that, a moderator and the "retard" flame.. okay, why not?
@Vexal actually that avatar restriction has been removed as far as i know. animated avatars, if they are not too annoying are allowed.
about the other things.. it is not really about the being noticed thing, it is about being a part of an community.
i mean, even if im now not allowed to call myself a mapper because some pros might redo my maps in 24hrs, this is a mapping community, and there is a feedback thread - for what if these members of this community dont care about anything but themself?
@Mozared
the thing is that HE was missing the point of this thread.. he talked about my other map - i know that it sucks, i know that it is unfinished, i god damn know that it is just anothet tug of war map and just a frickin remake.
but this thread was about the "how to" getting feedback for the tankwars project and why noone replies there - but not one word about it.
all he did was flaming at me because that map project that is not even close to be an beta (thats why i called it ALPHA) isnt finished and sucks additional to my bad english and my so obviosuly stupid avatar. was this the reason or point for this thread? no, it was not.
how the hell can someone say that a map isnt worth playing if he never actually played it? could you explain that to me?
because my FIRST "big" project still sucks, in its ALPHA state, because of that im an idiot that does not know anything on mapping, every map that i create will suck and isnt worth giving a try? because my avatar lets me look dumb?
exactly that is the point - a feedback thread is to make players play your map and get feedback, right? you now want to tell me EVERYONE on this forum thinks, because of my avatar, because of my lack of english skills and because of my not-finished wc3 remake map, that this map is not worth testing at least once?
i dont know what to say.. seriously.
And one more thing. Insulting people is a big deal. It doesn't help anything. These posts will get you attention for now, but they're not going to help you as a developer at all. Ever.
And one more thing. I already said you can't be attached to your ideas. But you didn't seem to listen. So I'll repeat it. You can't argue that an idea is good or that people should enjoy it. An idea only has so much potential, no matter how polished it is.
You're also putting words into peoples' mouths. No one's saying you're an idiot because of your project.
And one more thing. You're asking for feedback the wrong way. If you weren't given feedback naturally from people seeing threads about your map, then you're not going to get feedback you want any other way until you change something. People have to be drawn to it without you shoving it in their faces (like you are now). If people find themselves compelled to comment, they will comment. Unfortunately, in your case, it appears that none have.
So, you have to change something. You can't just blame the community.
And one more thing. Don't count on useful feedback from others. There's no real point. You should have your own ideas. Instead, you should gauge others' desire to provide feedback in the first place. I get emails all the time about my maps, and there are pages and pages of comments on my map pages on this website. But most things the people actually have to say are not useful to me. But it is useful to know that people have anything to say in the first place. There are times when I'll post my ideas or progress, and no one will say anything. I take that in itself as the feedback I was looking for. I might make a second post just to rule out timing and unlucky lack of exposure. If no one really comments, then I'll just assume that means the idea was bad or needs more work.
And one more thing. I also am terrible at presenting my ideas. I get much better feedback from play-testing (also my previous maps have good popularity standing, which too is feedback). I've made videos showcasing my new project and everyone ignores and hates them. I suck at making videos. It's hard to tell whether my ideas are poor, or my ability to present the ideas in a forum thread is poor.
EDIT: And one more thing. These are all things you have to figure out yourself over time. None of these things come natural to anyone.
@PatchOne: Go
I understand what you are saying, and I agree. You are missing the point. It is not about the map, it is not about the community, it is not about the English and it is not about the "stupid" avatar. It is about the impressions that they give, and the effects that they have on the people viewing them. There is a reason why the phrase "Don't judge a book by it's cover" was invented. It is human nature to assume things by the way something appears. It is your job to make that cover as appealing as possible.
On the other hand, listen to Vexal. Do not get too attached to your ideas, and do not get offended when people do not like them. It is your job to make something truly amazing, and then balance it with an awesome "cover".
Great to be back and part of the community again!
@PatchOne: Go
I gave you my opinion as a mere "observer". I told you that. Myself being a moderator thus meant nothing in that instance. You think I was just being cruel and picking on you. Thats ok, but the reality of the situation is I was being honest you from what I think about you.
You just dont seem to know how the world works. Yes, people can judge you on your avatar and build associations with it. Of course.
Thats life. I actually found your previous avatar to be extremely offensive.
Should that(or your english or etc) influence myself testing out your maps or forming an opinion of you?(joining your team etc etc), In an ideal world no. However this is real life, and how you market/present yourself is very important.
Remember, Your OP incited my reply. You came across aggressive and almost insulting towards this "our" community. You stated you were "pissed" off at the community and its players. You make thread/viewership count comparisons between your thread and EleTD, and use that as an argument?. C`mon?..
You have no right to be angry with us or the players for your own failure to comprehend and understand the nature of things.
Lets see what else
"i dont want to force anyone to play my map, but at least trying it once and writing down one or two lines of feedback - is that too much?"
Yea, actually it is too much. You actually contradict yourself by implying that we should try it atleast once. My question is, Why should we?.
Read what Vexal posted.
In all cases, You must make US desire to play your map. Its your job to create that incentive. Sure, some people wont mind testing it out for fun or whatever, but the majority of us and players will need good reason dont you think?
"but i start to aks myself - why? why would i waste my time into creating more maps if noone cares? not even a big mapping community seems to care about anything their mappers do except well-known map-remakes with a already huge own community behind them."
No one is forcing you to map. If you cant deal with its pressures, Best to quit now. Believe it or not, It actually takes much hard work and effort to make people care and to even build communities around your work. You think its simple?. No;p. Its a lot of hard work.
Depending on how much attention you want your map to have, You`re going to have to take all the right steps.
All of us. All mappers , We all work extremely hard and face the same problems as you. Creating videos, websites, getting skilled people working with you etc etc. Its tough work.
Your post was an insult to this community, and I took it very serious(As Ive cared about this community for a very long time). You need much introspection.
I wont reply further.
Again, Goodluck.
@PatchOne: Go
You would be unwise to discount the importance of things like punctuation, avatar choice, etc. When you put up a thread for feedback, you are essentially making a presentation to the reader and trying to entice them to provide you with what you need(in this case, playing your map, and by extension, feedback.)
I browse this forum quite a bit, and read your posts. Again, being candid here, there was nothing particularly enticing or exciting about your map. The typos, slurred sentences, etc. EVEN if they are not your fault are off-putting. It immediately makes your post seem amateurish. A post is essentially and advertisement, and your ad wasn't very good. Visual content(ie movies or screen shots - what you had wasn't particularly good) help too.
@Vexal: Go
because i called him stupid after he quasi called me an retard, i am the bad guy? okay...
i never said my idea is great or anything - thats why i want feedback for that map, to see if people actually like it.
but how if noone plays it? so there is a mapping community with a forum called
"Map Feedback - Made a cool map and want feedback from your players? Post here!"
and that is still the point and wont change - nobody does post there if they dont know your name. the question still is, why? it is a mapping community, right?
and i know that the answer is not "because your avatar lets you look stupid, because your english sucks, because noone likes your maps" - sorry.
about the "idiot because of you projects".. that was replied to this quote
the point of this thread was a map eternal never played, what makes this then? he judges that map because he played another one of my maps, and because that one sucked he wont see any reason to try another of my maps. that is how i understood the whole thing, and that is why i am that "enraging".
@taco i would never be offended if someone does not like my maps or my ideas - but again, this here was like "that guy´s map sucked so he is a bad mapper" to me.
[quote]Remember, Your OP incited my reply. You came across aggressive and almost insulting towards this "our" community. You stated you were "pissed" off at the community and its players. [quote]
because the thing still is, someone could think that a mapping community has members that care about maps (and not only their own maps). and that is not the fact - thats why the sc2 mapping community in general starts to annoy me. and that is why i started to insult it. i am sorry if that offended you, but i just dont like it.
the comparsion was there to state the monopoly a known mapper has.. obviously i would never compare any of my maps to something like eletd.
it was just his fame generating tons of people replying - and that is another thing that really sucks and helps nobody..
about the good reason, how would you know if a map has this good reason to play if you wont test it? screenshots or videos cant be the answer here..
and in the end, i am allowed to call myself a mapper now, yes?
however i will take back the personal insult of calling you stupid and agree on the fact that i enraged a bit too much, but still i couldnt make anyone understand my point yet.
I never said you were a bad guy. I said that insulting members or acting defensive won't help. It will give off the impression that you can't take objective feedback. It's stressful trying to give feedback when the person you're feeding back takes it personally. Most of the time, once a person realizes that feedback will be taken personally, they'll simply cease to give feedback to that person.
@PatchOne: Go
You are still missing the point.
NO. The 'point' of EW's reply was him basically telling you "I can't agree with what you say because I can't take you serious as a mapper". The fact that he disliked one of your maps was only ONE of the many reasons for that. He (and later others, me among them) mentioned plenty of other reasons, like your avatar and your typing style.
The reason nobody is really discussing your 'topic' of "why does nobody give feedback" is because nobody took your opening post seriously. Imagine if someone who is really cruel to animals makes a post on a forum with the topic "Don't you hate it that there's animal cops who lock people up for mistreating animals?. No one will take him seriously because he's being a hypocrite argueing a point he shouldn't be argueing. Instead of whining about the animal cops, the guy should simply not be cruel to animals - HIM changing something will solve his problem, while he is expecting the world to adjust to what he says so he can get away with his cruel behaviour. This is an extreme example, but in this case, that's you: you are complaining about not getting feedback, and people like EW are responding "that's because people can't take you serious as a mapper as there's plenty wrong with you and your maps that you ought to try and fix *before* complaining about external factors". He's not simply bashing you because of one map.
As for your actual topic - you keep saying that 'the community' should care about maps as a whole, but you need to understand that not everybody feels like testing random maps, especially not if they feel even ahead of testing that the map isnt going to be worth it. That said, it's simply untrue that you "cannot get feedback" - we regularly test all sorts of maps on the EU map night, and you can easily ask to have your map added to the playlist so we can play it through and give comments. The fact that you didn't know "getting feedback" was as easy as that is your own fault for not exploring the subject well enough, and here you are saying you are "pissed off at the community".
Additonally, you keep talking about a 'monopoly' for the 'known mapper', but you're still forgetting to factor in the things EW and Vexal have been mentioning - getting to the position of being a 'known mapper' requires WORK. Some of that work is actively seeking testers and getting your map tested. How do you think Karawasa got Elemental TD to where it is now? You are forgetting that getting to the position of being a 'known mapper' requires just as much effort in finding testers are you are currently facing; it's really not a case of those people having some kind of 'monopoly' on testing.
It's always morning on the Internet.
You just aren't very good. So, why would people want to play your map? What's the USP of your maps, besides "it's inferior to that other copy"? Especially the people that might actually give you incredible feedback (Malu, TKC, EW, Moza, Tomura, Otixa, Eiviyn, me, other people I can't call from my brain at 4am) are not interested in this kind of stuff. Look at other projects around, they have a far higher quality level than your maps and are a lot more interesting. Or to be precise: You are number 183234 or something of the many people who would like to become famous by making a map. Well, sucks to be you, because it ain't that damn easy. Lots of factors are involved to actually make something people want to play. And a lot more to make the map known. And sometimes those factors are just goddamn downright crazy (Nexus Wars).
So... get better and make something that actually is worth playing.
That's all I can say to that.
Oh and EleTD has a huge community from WC3 which is pretty loyal, so no wonder Ka... Kara... Kasawara... Ihavenoideahowthefuckheevergotthatnamespelledcorretly ... gets a lot of posts while you are viewed as someone, who tries to get a piece of his cake.
Also, good morning.
@Gorandor: Go
I don't think anyone has become "famous" by making a SC2 map.