I had a thread similar to this one months ago, when I was working on a protoss project with another individual. Now I'm working alone, and on a very different project. I'd like to share some terrain with you with the goal of getting feedback on designing a very different environment than I have designed before: an urban environment.
This is actually the hardest kind of terrain for me - the kind of terrain that requires you to be more minimalist in design. Urban areas that aren't destroyed or overgrown can only have a very small amount of visual depth, especially given the small size of the area I'm working with. This is designed to just be a small side street with a few businesses and storefronts populating the area. It's not meant to represent any particular location, but rather a sort of stereotype for what a scene or environment of this type would look like in SC2.
Now, things get a little easier for me. The further you stray from the starting point, the more destruction you encounter, starting with a simple car accident and a couple of suspicious-looking fellows roving the street in packs. There are still very few doodads, and I'm trying to figure out a way to increase visual depth without also increasing clutter. Putting decor on the upper levels could work, like on top of those garages, so maybe I'll go back and add some stuff there. Otherwise, this area is about as complete as it can get - the player will spend very little time here.
A small camp of some sorts was set up by a local law enforcement agency, and has since been ravaged by the ghouls that the player encounters in the previous screenshot. This is where the map begins to open up and becomes a little more spacious.
A larger scene of destruction and ruination. It seems those creatures were having themselves a snack, and didn't think to clean up after themselves.
The first thing that comes to mind here is that the big hole in the building on the left could be populated with rubble and other doodads, but after that, I'm still at a loss as to how to improve the look and feel of this area. I want to make it feel like it was a real urban environment that was ransacked. Maybe some more storefronts and the like could help me achieve that.
This is a wider shot, overlooking a wide open area - what was previously the town square. The ghouls have ransacked the area, killing everyone except for that curious marine who's trapped in the device on the right-hand side of the shot. The sandbags show that there was a struggle here, but it clearly didn't last long.
I'm very happy with this area and the remaining areas, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved. I think a storefront or two and some additional (albeit small) details could improve the sense of immersion that this scene already has.
A better shot of the town hall, which has surely seen better days.
One thing I really enjoy is leaving corpses and debris and other small things inside the buildings themselves. If people notice it, I think it adds another layer of visual depth. It's tiresome work, though.
Some poor sap crashed their car right into the fountain! Also pictured: lots of carnage.
The town's freight-processing area is in sad shape after the attack. Rubble and debris are everywhere. Some corpses for flavour, too.
Here lies the gate that leads out of the town and into the wastelands (not pictured). I had a lot of fun angling all the doodads to make them look convincingly-toppled over.
This and the last screenshot are probably the most impressive pieces I've been able to cobble together, though I still think they fit well within the urban area. Maybe adding some more rooftop doodads to the walls would add more depth?
That's all I have for now, though I'll be sure to update you guys on any major changes I make. I'll likely post the wasteland when it's got some work done on it, as well. Please let me know what you think I did well, what you think I could improve upon, and any other comments you might have!
It uses imgur, which isn't blocked by any countries as far as I'm aware, but depending on your network you may have issues that way. Can you click on the imgur album link at the bottom of the post?
Looks good. How is its performance? Also, how does it look in-game with unit vision? Will you be preventing flying units? Otherwise, you'll need to think about how you deal with the "roofs" so the player isn't running into empty spaces (and doing naughty things with pathing).
Still haven't tested performance. Will definitely need to make revealers for the scenery on the high ground, which might impact performance. My computer isn't great to benchmark this kind of thing since it can easily run the game on the highest settings, but I think a few people can test performance with less powerful rigs.
Flying units won't be enabled for the player or for the enemy, besides maybe some kind of transport that might show up in one or two spots. The urban environment is actually only the first 10 or so minutes of gameplay, if that, so larger battles and the like won't really be a concern. The player will get acquainted with their heroes and the behaviours of their enemies during small skirmishes while in the ruines city, but most of the gameplay will take place in a wasteland that I have yet to work on. Think Wings of Liberty map 2 with more attention to detail.
Image #1: I assume those vultures will get cleared during playthrough? Top of the cliffs look rather empty flat unless that is intentional.
Image #2: I would go for the open hangars and use more of the abundant space plane parts like models as doodads. As the hangars you have them in have animations to open and close you could add that into your gameplay with all the buildings closing on your arrival.
Image #3: Again the upper cliff levels look empty and flat. The upper left one also looks like it does not have a compatible terrain texture with that used by your cliffs.
Images #4-7: Look good.
Image #8: You said yourself the player has no air so unless you are going to reveal it using triggers it will be a wasted effort.
I would suggest some buildings with compressed scale along the z axis or some pipes/debris along the top of the empty cliffs near the beginning
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
Image #1: The opening cinematic involves the heroes and some units getting into the vultures, and then they drive down until they reach the car crash scene. I'm in the process of detailing the upper cliffs to make them look more active all around.
Image #2: I'll take a look at which hangars actually open and close, because that does sound like a good idea. Or were you saying that the hangars in this image have open/close animations?
Image #8: Yes, I'll be revealing them via triggers.
You make a good suggestion to add pipes and compressed buildings. I'll also be adding some antennae and fans. I'll post screenshots over the weekend when I've got more to show.
Thanks for your advice, and to everyone else who commented!
I think some of the model variants do have a work animation that opens and closes the doors (might be confusing them with another model). You would have to look in the cutscene editor and maybe make a custom Doodad actor that uses a query response like the char plant doodad.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
An updated view of the first shot. Looking much better now, but there's still some room for improvement.
Here's the exit to the city - the 'airlock' between the urban environment and the outlying wasteland. Lots of unfortunate individuals (or what's left of them) lie in this ravaged area.
These shots are all of a small side area where two more marines are being held by the ghouls. Some auto-turrets have also been taken control of by the hostile forces.
This area is obviously incomplete, but I wanted to show off the oasis concept I had. Entire settlements will be built around these things, with about three or four of them on the map. They'll serve as progress markers for the player as they progress through the wasteland.
Another, larger oasis.
I'm still looking for ways to improve my terraining, so feel free to provide feedback (even if you've already chimed in)! Thanks in advance to everyone who's been kind enough to offer their perspective. Hope everyone who celebrates it has a wonderful Thanksgiving.
I've completed the first settlement, and changed the texture set to make the map look more cohesive overall.
The outskirts of the city's exit.
The settlement.
The passage to the next oasis.
All of the gameplay in this map will be commando (no base-building), so I expect the running time of this mission to be fairly short. To that end, I'm not sure if I'm putting too much detail into a map that won't realistically be seen for very long, but I feel like the end product of my labour justifies the labour itself.
I've also updated the album link, which you can find here and on the first post of the thread. It includes all images seen in this thread, in chronological order.
You do great work, for sure. I'm sure I'd do some things differently, but I don't have any criticisms on your technique. I do have a few thoughts in terms of your approach. It might sound crazy, but I think in general that you're doing too much work.
You're spreading your detail out really widely, which while nice doesn't have actually have the effect you might expect. In game, your players aren't going to be focusing enough to appreciate a baseline level like that, except I suspect it will make it harder for things to stand out. I'd recommend you tone down the overall level of detail (or at least, don't do as much going forward) and focus your efforts on specific places you know your players are going to be spending time (mob spawn points, cinematic areas, enemy bases, I think you get the idea). Even in commando missions, the players will mostly be moving from point to point, so save your juice for where it matters.
With picture #2 it looks like someone has swept all the stuff to the side leaving the path spotless. Consider 1-2 doodads in the middle of the road, like a skeleton or two.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
I had a similar thought that the manner in which I detail these scenes has likely taken away from the magnificence or importance of whatever was supposed to be the centerpiece. Comparing the appearance of the oases before I established settlements around them to their visual impact now that their surroundings have been completed, it definitely feels like some importance was lost.
That being said, I am still fairly pleased with how the final product turned out. I definitely think I should be consolidating my efforts more; by working less in areas that the player will simply move through, by working more in areas that players will spend lots of time in, or by doing a little of both. I don't know how much [i]more[/i] detail I would be able to squeeze into the settlements, though.
I appreciate your feedback and will definitely seek to have some areas that are detailed in a more minimalist style, at least for scenes that the player won't spend much time in.
I've taken note of that myself - though admittedly I considered this a necessary evil due to terrain direction - but I think I can afford to cheat a little and have some crates or corpses or foliage creeping over the sides of the road. I've already added some additional corpses and wreckage into the first settlement, as you can see below.
Thank you! I've been using the small rock doodads to border the larger rocks, but I agree that they could see some more use. I'm thinking of only allowing foliage into specific areas, or just manually placing it, since I dislike the procedural generation that the editor uses to place foliage in general, but I'll keep an open mind as I continue working on the map.
Thanks again to everyone who's left comments! In other news, I've completed some work on the second, larger settlement, which you'll see below.
I'll have more progress made on this area later today, so check back soon for more updates!
In regard to foliage, the procedural generation can be controlled/manipulated.
In the data editor, under Terrain Data -> Terrain Textures, you can specify what model appears for foliage generation, as well as the probability and the placement radius. You can specify any number of models, and this is per texture, so you can have a great deal of control of where, and what foliage can appear.
Also, I presume you are focused on the static presentation of the terrain? I ask because I believe a lot of terrain can be made more effective with adding and controlling actor events in relation to the doodads (lights turning on or off at random intervals, various animations only playing in the presence of units, and so forth).
Sounds like there's more control than I had initially assumed. Thanks for the tips.
I would love to have certain doodads animate only when players enter a certain region around them, but my issue is that I don't think that's possible for some of the models I'm using. For example, the lights don't have variations where they are identical except for the light being turned off, so I don't think I could have that sort of mechanic in place for the map. Another cool thing would be to have some of the sewer floodlight assets only turn when player units are nearby, having them return to their default facing direction when the player's units leave the radius, but that probably wouldn't work because modifying the angle of that doodad would also modify the direction of its base and not just the light on top.
The thing about hiding the animated doodad in fog, there's a function in data that pause the doodad while not visible to a player, someone could point that better them me, but if not, I can try to found out where I saw that.
Now, about the light, I don't know if I completely understand what you want to do, but you can always manipulate things if you desire, use a dummy light and move it around with trigger (or data), also you can change the size, angle and anything.
I'll check out the data flags and see if I can find anything of use when I get to that stage of the map's development. Thanks for the heads up - I was under the impression that this was possible.
I was just talking about disabling/enabling the lights manually through actor events to simulate the effect of motion-activated lights (or make them flicker, etc.). It sounds like your proposed solution is probably the best one to go with, though it will come at the cost of a number of my doodads.
Maybe have a later oasis with no settlement and just nature?
Look at the Char Weed doodad for the basics of using regions and query responses.
Lights can be made brighter or dimmer by adjusting the actor scale
Look at my turret simulation demo map for a system of getting doodads to look at a unit when in range (also uses query responses). Make a composite doodad with a stationary base and a light that does not have a large base of its own.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
I had a thread similar to this one months ago, when I was working on a protoss project with another individual. Now I'm working alone, and on a very different project. I'd like to share some terrain with you with the goal of getting feedback on designing a very different environment than I have designed before: an urban environment.
This is actually the hardest kind of terrain for me - the kind of terrain that requires you to be more minimalist in design. Urban areas that aren't destroyed or overgrown can only have a very small amount of visual depth, especially given the small size of the area I'm working with. This is designed to just be a small side street with a few businesses and storefronts populating the area. It's not meant to represent any particular location, but rather a sort of stereotype for what a scene or environment of this type would look like in SC2.
Now, things get a little easier for me. The further you stray from the starting point, the more destruction you encounter, starting with a simple car accident and a couple of suspicious-looking fellows roving the street in packs. There are still very few doodads, and I'm trying to figure out a way to increase visual depth without also increasing clutter. Putting decor on the upper levels could work, like on top of those garages, so maybe I'll go back and add some stuff there. Otherwise, this area is about as complete as it can get - the player will spend very little time here.
A small camp of some sorts was set up by a local law enforcement agency, and has since been ravaged by the ghouls that the player encounters in the previous screenshot. This is where the map begins to open up and becomes a little more spacious.
A larger scene of destruction and ruination. It seems those creatures were having themselves a snack, and didn't think to clean up after themselves. The first thing that comes to mind here is that the big hole in the building on the left could be populated with rubble and other doodads, but after that, I'm still at a loss as to how to improve the look and feel of this area. I want to make it feel like it was a real urban environment that was ransacked. Maybe some more storefronts and the like could help me achieve that.
This is a wider shot, overlooking a wide open area - what was previously the town square. The ghouls have ransacked the area, killing everyone except for that curious marine who's trapped in the device on the right-hand side of the shot. The sandbags show that there was a struggle here, but it clearly didn't last long. I'm very happy with this area and the remaining areas, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved. I think a storefront or two and some additional (albeit small) details could improve the sense of immersion that this scene already has.
A better shot of the town hall, which has surely seen better days. One thing I really enjoy is leaving corpses and debris and other small things inside the buildings themselves. If people notice it, I think it adds another layer of visual depth. It's tiresome work, though.
Some poor sap crashed their car right into the fountain! Also pictured: lots of carnage.
The town's freight-processing area is in sad shape after the attack. Rubble and debris are everywhere. Some corpses for flavour, too.
Here lies the gate that leads out of the town and into the wastelands (not pictured). I had a lot of fun angling all the doodads to make them look convincingly-toppled over. This and the last screenshot are probably the most impressive pieces I've been able to cobble together, though I still think they fit well within the urban area. Maybe adding some more rooftop doodads to the walls would add more depth?
That's all I have for now, though I'll be sure to update you guys on any major changes I make. I'll likely post the wasteland when it's got some work done on it, as well. Please let me know what you think I did well, what you think I could improve upon, and any other comments you might have!
The full imgur album can be found here.
Thanks everyone!
My YouTube | My SoundCloud | My Twitter
Is this part of a playable map?
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/179654-data-actor-events-message-texture-select-by-id
https://media.forgecdn.net/attachments/187/40/Screenshot2011-04-17_09_16_21.jpg
Why can't i see the images
@DrSuperEvil: Go
Yes, it's playable. I've painted pathing along the sidewalk and in other places to make sure the player has a route.
@DOOMEDEARTH: Go
It uses imgur, which isn't blocked by any countries as far as I'm aware, but depending on your network you may have issues that way. Can you click on the imgur album link at the bottom of the post?
My YouTube | My SoundCloud | My Twitter
Looks good. How is its performance? Also, how does it look in-game with unit vision? Will you be preventing flying units? Otherwise, you'll need to think about how you deal with the "roofs" so the player isn't running into empty spaces (and doing naughty things with pathing).
@LucidIguana: Go
Still haven't tested performance. Will definitely need to make revealers for the scenery on the high ground, which might impact performance. My computer isn't great to benchmark this kind of thing since it can easily run the game on the highest settings, but I think a few people can test performance with less powerful rigs.
Flying units won't be enabled for the player or for the enemy, besides maybe some kind of transport that might show up in one or two spots. The urban environment is actually only the first 10 or so minutes of gameplay, if that, so larger battles and the like won't really be a concern. The player will get acquainted with their heroes and the behaviours of their enemies during small skirmishes while in the ruines city, but most of the gameplay will take place in a wasteland that I have yet to work on. Think Wings of Liberty map 2 with more attention to detail.
My YouTube | My SoundCloud | My Twitter
Image #1: I assume those vultures will get cleared during playthrough? Top of the cliffs look rather empty flat unless that is intentional.
Image #2: I would go for the open hangars and use more of the abundant space plane parts like models as doodads. As the hangars you have them in have animations to open and close you could add that into your gameplay with all the buildings closing on your arrival.
Image #3: Again the upper cliff levels look empty and flat. The upper left one also looks like it does not have a compatible terrain texture with that used by your cliffs.
Images #4-7: Look good.
Image #8: You said yourself the player has no air so unless you are going to reveal it using triggers it will be a wasted effort.
I would suggest some buildings with compressed scale along the z axis or some pipes/debris along the top of the empty cliffs near the beginning
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/179654-data-actor-events-message-texture-select-by-id
https://media.forgecdn.net/attachments/187/40/Screenshot2011-04-17_09_16_21.jpg
@DrSuperEvil: Go
Image #1: The opening cinematic involves the heroes and some units getting into the vultures, and then they drive down until they reach the car crash scene. I'm in the process of detailing the upper cliffs to make them look more active all around.
Image #2: I'll take a look at which hangars actually open and close, because that does sound like a good idea. Or were you saying that the hangars in this image have open/close animations?
Image #8: Yes, I'll be revealing them via triggers.
You make a good suggestion to add pipes and compressed buildings. I'll also be adding some antennae and fans. I'll post screenshots over the weekend when I've got more to show.
Thanks for your advice, and to everyone else who commented!
My YouTube | My SoundCloud | My Twitter
I think some of the model variants do have a work animation that opens and closes the doors (might be confusing them with another model). You would have to look in the cutscene editor and maybe make a custom Doodad actor that uses a query response like the char plant doodad.
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/179654-data-actor-events-message-texture-select-by-id
https://media.forgecdn.net/attachments/187/40/Screenshot2011-04-17_09_16_21.jpg
An updated view of the first shot. Looking much better now, but there's still some room for improvement.
Here's the exit to the city - the 'airlock' between the urban environment and the outlying wasteland. Lots of unfortunate individuals (or what's left of them) lie in this ravaged area.
These shots are all of a small side area where two more marines are being held by the ghouls. Some auto-turrets have also been taken control of by the hostile forces.
This area is obviously incomplete, but I wanted to show off the oasis concept I had. Entire settlements will be built around these things, with about three or four of them on the map. They'll serve as progress markers for the player as they progress through the wasteland.
Another, larger oasis.
I'm still looking for ways to improve my terraining, so feel free to provide feedback (even if you've already chimed in)! Thanks in advance to everyone who's been kind enough to offer their perspective. Hope everyone who celebrates it has a wonderful Thanksgiving.
My YouTube | My SoundCloud | My Twitter
I've completed the first settlement, and changed the texture set to make the map look more cohesive overall.
The outskirts of the city's exit.
The settlement.
The passage to the next oasis.
All of the gameplay in this map will be commando (no base-building), so I expect the running time of this mission to be fairly short. To that end, I'm not sure if I'm putting too much detail into a map that won't realistically be seen for very long, but I feel like the end product of my labour justifies the labour itself.
I've also updated the album link, which you can find here and on the first post of the thread. It includes all images seen in this thread, in chronological order.
My YouTube | My SoundCloud | My Twitter
You do great work, for sure. I'm sure I'd do some things differently, but I don't have any criticisms on your technique. I do have a few thoughts in terms of your approach. It might sound crazy, but I think in general that you're doing too much work.
You're spreading your detail out really widely, which while nice doesn't have actually have the effect you might expect. In game, your players aren't going to be focusing enough to appreciate a baseline level like that, except I suspect it will make it harder for things to stand out. I'd recommend you tone down the overall level of detail (or at least, don't do as much going forward) and focus your efforts on specific places you know your players are going to be spending time (mob spawn points, cinematic areas, enemy bases, I think you get the idea). Even in commando missions, the players will mostly be moving from point to point, so save your juice for where it matters.
With picture #2 it looks like someone has swept all the stuff to the side leaving the path spotless. Consider 1-2 doodads in the middle of the road, like a skeleton or two.
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/179654-data-actor-events-message-texture-select-by-id
https://media.forgecdn.net/attachments/187/40/Screenshot2011-04-17_09_16_21.jpg
This beautiful terrain I will say use the small rocks doodads and FOLIAGE and remember you can always change on DATA what foliage you want.
Marie T. Freeman If you're too busy to give your neighbor a helping hand, then you're just too darned busy. https://www.facebook.com/wargirlmaps.maps
Spread the love join DISCORD
https://discord.gg/Jtzt8Su
@LucidIguana: Go
I had a similar thought that the manner in which I detail these scenes has likely taken away from the magnificence or importance of whatever was supposed to be the centerpiece. Comparing the appearance of the oases before I established settlements around them to their visual impact now that their surroundings have been completed, it definitely feels like some importance was lost.
That being said, I am still fairly pleased with how the final product turned out. I definitely think I should be consolidating my efforts more; by working less in areas that the player will simply move through, by working more in areas that players will spend lots of time in, or by doing a little of both. I don't know how much [i]more[/i] detail I would be able to squeeze into the settlements, though.
I appreciate your feedback and will definitely seek to have some areas that are detailed in a more minimalist style, at least for scenes that the player won't spend much time in.
@DrSuperEvil: Go
I've taken note of that myself - though admittedly I considered this a necessary evil due to terrain direction - but I think I can afford to cheat a little and have some crates or corpses or foliage creeping over the sides of the road. I've already added some additional corpses and wreckage into the first settlement, as you can see below.
@wargirlwargirl: Go
Thank you! I've been using the small rock doodads to border the larger rocks, but I agree that they could see some more use. I'm thinking of only allowing foliage into specific areas, or just manually placing it, since I dislike the procedural generation that the editor uses to place foliage in general, but I'll keep an open mind as I continue working on the map.
Thanks again to everyone who's left comments! In other news, I've completed some work on the second, larger settlement, which you'll see below.
I'll have more progress made on this area later today, so check back soon for more updates!
My YouTube | My SoundCloud | My Twitter
In regard to foliage, the procedural generation can be controlled/manipulated.
In the data editor, under Terrain Data -> Terrain Textures, you can specify what model appears for foliage generation, as well as the probability and the placement radius. You can specify any number of models, and this is per texture, so you can have a great deal of control of where, and what foliage can appear.
Also, I presume you are focused on the static presentation of the terrain? I ask because I believe a lot of terrain can be made more effective with adding and controlling actor events in relation to the doodads (lights turning on or off at random intervals, various animations only playing in the presence of units, and so forth).
@ArcaneDurandel: Go
Sounds like there's more control than I had initially assumed. Thanks for the tips.
I would love to have certain doodads animate only when players enter a certain region around them, but my issue is that I don't think that's possible for some of the models I'm using. For example, the lights don't have variations where they are identical except for the light being turned off, so I don't think I could have that sort of mechanic in place for the map. Another cool thing would be to have some of the sewer floodlight assets only turn when player units are nearby, having them return to their default facing direction when the player's units leave the radius, but that probably wouldn't work because modifying the angle of that doodad would also modify the direction of its base and not just the light on top.
My YouTube | My SoundCloud | My Twitter
@Pr0nogo: Go
The thing about hiding the animated doodad in fog, there's a function in data that pause the doodad while not visible to a player, someone could point that better them me, but if not, I can try to found out where I saw that.
Now, about the light, I don't know if I completely understand what you want to do, but you can always manipulate things if you desire, use a dummy light and move it around with trigger (or data), also you can change the size, angle and anything.
@Laiev: Go
I'll check out the data flags and see if I can find anything of use when I get to that stage of the map's development. Thanks for the heads up - I was under the impression that this was possible.
I was just talking about disabling/enabling the lights manually through actor events to simulate the effect of motion-activated lights (or make them flicker, etc.). It sounds like your proposed solution is probably the best one to go with, though it will come at the cost of a number of my doodads.
My YouTube | My SoundCloud | My Twitter
@Pr0nogo: Go
Was referring to the city airlock.
Maybe have a later oasis with no settlement and just nature?
Look at the Char Weed doodad for the basics of using regions and query responses.
Lights can be made brighter or dimmer by adjusting the actor scale
Look at my turret simulation demo map for a system of getting doodads to look at a unit when in range (also uses query responses). Make a composite doodad with a stationary base and a light that does not have a large base of its own.
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/179654-data-actor-events-message-texture-select-by-id
https://media.forgecdn.net/attachments/187/40/Screenshot2011-04-17_09_16_21.jpg