I thought this thread was for tips and tricks on melee map builds. So I was wondering if the single gas would throw off melee play too much to be used in a tournament.
Single gas on the main, definitely. Keep in mind that a simple gas steal vs a Protoss basically forces a 4-gate. Starting off with 1 gas would give T and Z a HUUUGE advantage over P. It works if there's 1 gas at the natural or any later expansions, though.
Suppose I will throw this out there, not sure if anybody else has said it. If you select an area of terrain, you can copy and paste it. And then if you go to edit >> flip/rotate, you can flip or rotate the terrain. Use this to get perfectly mirrored maps.
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Feel free to Send me a PM if you have any questions/concerns!
Suppose I will throw this out there, not sure if anybody else has said it. If you select an area of terrain, you can copy and paste it. And then if you go to edit >> flip/rotate, you can flip or rotate the terrain. Use this to get perfectly mirrored maps.
Hah, I knew there was a way. Didn't know it was that easy, though, lol. Thanks for the tip ;).
The videos are not made solely for the purpose of tips and tricks, when it comes to melee mapping, it is more of an introduction, but contains quite a few pointers on what sizes of fx main and expansion, placement of xel'naga watchers, map mirroring and other minor tips and tricks to balancing etc. I was asked to make some videos like this for a couple of weeks ago, but never got around to post them, and from what I can see, this is where they are suppose to be posted.
To this discussion I'd like to add some of my own melee map making philosophy.
When you make a map try to balance it out when it comes to open areas versus cliffs.
If you put a lot of cliffs then the map can be abused a lot by certain strategies or races, terrans most notably with siege tanks, it can also force excessive air responses.
If the map is too open then other strategies can be abused, Zerg become super strong because of the lack of chokes and their potential to swarm their enemies to death.
Balance the map, if you make a certain area too open compensate by making other areas closed. I'm a big fan of having different types of areas on a map so that all races can be equally viable.
So I know that melee mapping might not be the most interesting for a lot of us "custom mappers", but I would like to try and revive this thread. Melee mapping in general lacks organization, and it revolves a bit too much around copying Blizzard maps, at least in my opinion.
So, I believe it is time for a THREAD NECRO!
Anyways, I would like to TRY and revive this thread, and see what we can do with it as a community! Any ideas you have I will add to the OP thread, and then see where that takes us. If no ideas come in... well then I guess we will have no tips and tricks :( Let's not let that happen!
NOTE: Try and include numbers. For example, x minerals per expansion, map about x size for, number of vespene geysers x, etc. Try to stay away from the "do what feels right" advice when dealing with things that revolve around numbers, BUT if you have some advice that DOESN'T deal with numbers, PLEASE share that as well. For some ideas on what I mean by that, check out the notes section of the OP.
I've recently started melee mapping, and I gotta say that it ain't easy. Expanding this thread is a brilliant idea to help out new melee mappers. You've got my full support! :)
Glad to here it! I hope others do to. The community needs to run this. I did some research and added some tips to the OP, but there is much more that needs to be done.
If anyone wants to extract any details that might be useful from those YouTube videos and share them in text format, it would be much appreciated.
Suppose I will throw this out there, not sure if anybody else has said it. If you select an area of terrain, you can copy and paste it. And then if you go to edit >> flip/rotate, you can flip or rotate the terrain. Use this to get perfectly mirrored maps.
So... I've been trying to make melee maps... and this is the part that keeps killing me.
Any attempts at an angled map especially, as the pasting will cut off a portion of the center and all around make it look ugly.
But I have had an extremely hard time lining up maps the are mostly horizontal or vertical also...
Does anyone have any tips of more accurate copy/pasting? Are there any downloadable programs I can grab to help me?
melee mapmaking cannot be defined by the "community" if one abides by blizzard's editor!, that said, who cares about this tag ?.. well, too many people do = me being a sad panda
i have been making melee maps that are shunned into custom from the start of wol. if tl is any indication, they are sneered at.. if mapster is any indication, they are played and appreciated for the actual fun between players they (sometimes) foster
...
practical example:
^ this map has retained the melee tag from galaxy, while half of the pathways are "blurred" by the "water" being placed higher than the ground units
.. while on the other hand, a melee map with a destructible rock with 10% of its "melee" hp will get "custom" tag
...
blizz's melee tag is just an arbitrary line in the sand .. it shouldn't have been treated like "holy scripture" like it has been
(mostly on tl .. agreed, but that it has been the case because of them, doesn't make it any less relevant)
...
producing melee maps should be as glorious to attempt than producing custom maps
i love both: playing sc2 on void temple or playing tron on pc = just as much fun
sorry for the rant :)
...
melee maps should:
make all strategies shine, make all match up shine, be over the top, be over conservative
while/where a custom map is arguably a "specialized/specific/narrowed for specific gameplay" map, melee maps should cover ALL that is possible in galaxy (of course not all in the same map, but everything over the huge amount of maps produced in an effort to "try out everything" while keeping what is good/fun/interesting/exiting and practical for competitive maps)
the melee "stamp" is meant to organize and "help" (it allows full use of inbuilt ai s for instance), not to withhold or reduce the gameplay palette
the big mistake is to think that maps must "follow" the pro use of the units, an equally big mistake would be to make maps that would dictate the use of the units
the massive number of different (properly showcased) melee maps should allow for great diversity in the map pool (once concepts are "safely" introduced in later maps)
1/ practice experimentation that seems to go too far
2/ test / refine
3/ then work :/ : processing / incorporating said new stuff for competitive play
practical exemple:
when "deforming" terrain excessively, one can create the "elevator effect" for flying (and ground) units .. granting a special (typically non melee) vision (much larger, and difficult to play (because you "lose sight" of units in these areas))
1/ did several maps to see how it worked (as in: experiencing what the mount(s) created would interfere with other aspects of gameplay, like for instance how it coincides with a second ("out there") feature : places where units are hidden)
2/ it didn't stur nor gain any attention, so not enough players taking an interest made it impossible to go further (sad panda = me)
3/ i don't give a fig about pro players nor do i agree that their opinion is anything but self serving (totally legit on their part) and bad for everything that goes with "melee entertainment value"
practical example of how to fix ladder map pool: "map of the week" in bw
sorry for wall of text (at least, i didn't link all my squirmishes on tl about "how melee stuff will die if you keep this tl attitude up, you will see" ; maybe now that all melee only mapmaking teams have quit, perhaps it will change
1/ i draw a layout with the levels from the ground up
(this maximizes the extra heights available all through the refinement of your leveling for different reasons: water levels .. mist levels .. gameplay issue 'down vision' most noticeably)
the heights of the different textures used (water, lava..) must be set in synch with decisions of gameplay heights (which side is up or down)
2/ i refine by placing doodads and ramps .. ("refine" accesses and bases' areas and move doodads around for gameplay and effect to be at maximum efficiency)
3/ get in <3 with texturing and lighting (both changing parameters of the "chosen default ambiance" and placing specific light emitters or changing the gamma coloring on the map)
4/ refine both 2/ and 3 add rocks (normal, collapsible, low hit points barrages/walls, other)
5/ have fun with specific features
features
these may be either acceptable to blizzard' (and get the melee tag) or outrageously blizzard melee forbidden .. they are all awesome melee worthy features nonetheless:
.
elevator effect (for air or ground/air units)
elevator effect corollary: "lost" map areas
swamp (optical) : water limits and terrain height are not well defined and units' vision can be "blurred" (underneath) by animated layers (water, lava..)
swamp (slow effect) : areas slowing down the movement of units (attack speed included)
weapon free zones : areas where all weapons are disabled
spell free zones : areas where all spells are disabled
mana / energy rejuvenation zones : areas where all units energy count is maxed out at very quick rate
bridges: an area on two levels yet separated.. (both giving access (see tunnels)) (if the bridge is destroyed both areas wound/kill units in either levels but differently (one on top of the other, under: massive effect / over the bridge: less ); all units are pushed from the point of destruction to closest 'safe zone' if surviving)
change of scene: (like a destroyed bridge) change layout until the end of the game (bridge in this case is just the example, a volcano erupting changing the layout until the end of the game is a different visual, but it remains the same thing: a change to the layout until end of game)
moving neutral units such as trains (acting as destructible moving walls (slows movement and attack speed of close nearby units (slightly))) or convoys (ground or air) timed into "build order timings" (trendy or classical)
lava rising : areas that periodically become unusable for a defined period of time, killing units in said areas, changing layouts and gameplay imperatives deriving from layouts, the visual reverts in synch with the effects
storm rising : areas that periodically become unusable for a defined period of time, pushing units away from said areas, yet the zones remain visually the same (for instance locust would attack and not prevent unit movement, the layout is still the same))
more rocks: production of destructible units that gradually change the layout (for instance: low hit point rocks appearing to form a wall or in a preset (or random) pattern that slowly fills the screen)
teleporter zones allowing for tunnels
teleporter zones forming a "spherical" map (8 ins and outs around the edges of the map
I want to share some of my thoughts on expansions and how there need to be variation in the game.
Currently there is one variation called the gold base that is usually in the center of the map and sometimes there are rocks preventing you from building your Nexus there. One of the fact about a gold base is that the gold minerals nods deplete faster then regular blue mineral nods.
The first fantasy expansion base is a half gold base where the rocks cover the gold mineral nods. You can build your Nexus at the optimal mining distance from the minerals nods but as for the Gold minerals, You will still be able to mine from some of the gold minerals that are in the rock pile but the mining path will not be optimal. Also there is some gold mineral nod in the center of the rock pile that is untouchable so until you can remove the rock pile you wont get to them.
The second idea is to to have a Rich Vespene Geyser base where the rich geysers are covered by rocks. Again you will be able to build you Nexus at the optimal mining distance from the resource nods but you will haft to remove the rock pile to get the Assimilator on the geyser to start harvesting your rich vespene gas.
Having variation in the expansion base will bring new light and understanding in how the game can be played and direct certain paths that the player could go down just by the way the map is made and where the key bases are to have are at. This is easy to understand when you see the Force Field at the ramp is follows the same characteristic design pattern. This Setup needs a ramp for it to be use to its full potential same can be said about a base setup that will allow Carriers to be effective unit to have in the army.
Single gas on the main, definitely. Keep in mind that a simple gas steal vs a Protoss basically forces a 4-gate. Starting off with 1 gas would give T and Z a HUUUGE advantage over P. It works if there's 1 gas at the natural or any later expansions, though.
Suppose I will throw this out there, not sure if anybody else has said it. If you select an area of terrain, you can copy and paste it. And then if you go to edit >> flip/rotate, you can flip or rotate the terrain. Use this to get perfectly mirrored maps.
Hah, I knew there was a way. Didn't know it was that easy, though, lol. Thanks for the tip ;).
@zeldarules28: Go
Hey I was gonna lock the thread for getting off topic, but I decided not to, thanks for making me feel better about my decision! :D
Great to be back and part of the community again!
@TacoManStan: Go
lol, I'd keep replying anyways :D
The videos are not made solely for the purpose of tips and tricks, when it comes to melee mapping, it is more of an introduction, but contains quite a few pointers on what sizes of fx main and expansion, placement of xel'naga watchers, map mirroring and other minor tips and tricks to balancing etc. I was asked to make some videos like this for a couple of weeks ago, but never got around to post them, and from what I can see, this is where they are suppose to be posted.
Not sure where you're from Victiln, but you've got a genius accent/voice. You remind me of Sherlock Holmes =P.
Also, nice tutorials =P
@Mozared: Go
Have to say thanks, Not everyday I get a compliment for the accent lol.
Hopefully they can be off some use :)
To this discussion I'd like to add some of my own melee map making philosophy.
When you make a map try to balance it out when it comes to open areas versus cliffs. If you put a lot of cliffs then the map can be abused a lot by certain strategies or races, terrans most notably with siege tanks, it can also force excessive air responses. If the map is too open then other strategies can be abused, Zerg become super strong because of the lack of chokes and their potential to swarm their enemies to death.
Balance the map, if you make a certain area too open compensate by making other areas closed. I'm a big fan of having different types of areas on a map so that all races can be equally viable.
Hey everyone!
So I know that melee mapping might not be the most interesting for a lot of us "custom mappers", but I would like to try and revive this thread. Melee mapping in general lacks organization, and it revolves a bit too much around copying Blizzard maps, at least in my opinion.
So, I believe it is time for a THREAD NECRO!
Anyways, I would like to TRY and revive this thread, and see what we can do with it as a community! Any ideas you have I will add to the OP thread, and then see where that takes us. If no ideas come in... well then I guess we will have no tips and tricks :( Let's not let that happen!
NOTE: Try and include numbers. For example, x minerals per expansion, map about x size for, number of vespene geysers x, etc. Try to stay away from the "do what feels right" advice when dealing with things that revolve around numbers, BUT if you have some advice that DOESN'T deal with numbers, PLEASE share that as well. For some ideas on what I mean by that, check out the notes section of the OP.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
@TacoManStan: Go
I've recently started melee mapping, and I gotta say that it ain't easy. Expanding this thread is a brilliant idea to help out new melee mappers. You've got my full support! :)
Glad to here it! I hope others do to. The community needs to run this. I did some research and added some tips to the OP, but there is much more that needs to be done.
If anyone wants to extract any details that might be useful from those YouTube videos and share them in text format, it would be much appreciated.
Great to be back and part of the community again!
So... I've been trying to make melee maps... and this is the part that keeps killing me.
Any attempts at an angled map especially, as the pasting will cut off a portion of the center and all around make it look ugly.
But I have had an extremely hard time lining up maps the are mostly horizontal or vertical also...
Does anyone have any tips of more accurate copy/pasting? Are there any downloadable programs I can grab to help me?
deleted to move to its own thread, sorry =]
melee mapmaking cannot be defined by the "community" if one abides by blizzard's editor!, that said, who cares about this tag ?.. well, too many people do = me being a sad panda
i have been making melee maps that are shunned into custom from the start of wol. if tl is any indication, they are sneered at.. if mapster is any indication, they are played and appreciated for the actual fun between players they (sometimes) foster
...
practical example:
^ this map has retained the melee tag from galaxy, while half of the pathways are "blurred" by the "water" being placed higher than the ground units
.. while on the other hand, a melee map with a destructible rock with 10% of its "melee" hp will get "custom" tag
...
blizz's melee tag is just an arbitrary line in the sand .. it shouldn't have been treated like "holy scripture" like it has been
(mostly on tl .. agreed, but that it has been the case because of them, doesn't make it any less relevant)
...
producing melee maps should be as glorious to attempt than producing custom maps
i love both: playing sc2 on void temple or playing tron on pc = just as much fun
sorry for the rant :)
...
melee maps should:
make all strategies shine, make all match up shine, be over the top, be over conservative
while/where a custom map is arguably a "specialized/specific/narrowed for specific gameplay" map, melee maps should cover ALL that is possible in galaxy (of course not all in the same map, but everything over the huge amount of maps produced in an effort to "try out everything" while keeping what is good/fun/interesting/exiting and practical for competitive maps)
the melee "stamp" is meant to organize and "help" (it allows full use of inbuilt ai s for instance), not to withhold or reduce the gameplay palette
the big mistake is to think that maps must "follow" the pro use of the units, an equally big mistake would be to make maps that would dictate the use of the units
the massive number of different (properly showcased) melee maps should allow for great diversity in the map pool (once concepts are "safely" introduced in later maps)
1/ practice experimentation that seems to go too far
2/ test / refine
3/ then work :/ : processing / incorporating said new stuff for competitive play
practical exemple:
when "deforming" terrain excessively, one can create the "elevator effect" for flying (and ground) units .. granting a special (typically non melee) vision (much larger, and difficult to play (because you "lose sight" of units in these areas))
1/ did several maps to see how it worked (as in: experiencing what the mount(s) created would interfere with other aspects of gameplay, like for instance how it coincides with a second ("out there") feature : places where units are hidden)
2/ it didn't stur nor gain any attention, so not enough players taking an interest made it impossible to go further (sad panda = me)
3/ i don't give a fig about pro players nor do i agree that their opinion is anything but self serving (totally legit on their part) and bad for everything that goes with "melee entertainment value"
practical example of how to fix ladder map pool: "map of the week" in bw
sorry for wall of text (at least, i didn't link all my squirmishes on tl about "how melee stuff will die if you keep this tl attitude up, you will see" ; maybe now that all melee only mapmaking teams have quit, perhaps it will change
if you love black fog like i do .. i love you
tips and practices
1/ i draw a layout with the levels from the ground up
(this maximizes the extra heights available all through the refinement of your leveling for different reasons: water levels .. mist levels .. gameplay issue 'down vision' most noticeably)
the heights of the different textures used (water, lava..) must be set in synch with decisions of gameplay heights (which side is up or down)
2/ i refine by placing doodads and ramps .. ("refine" accesses and bases' areas and move doodads around for gameplay and effect to be at maximum efficiency)
3/ get in <3 with texturing and lighting (both changing parameters of the "chosen default ambiance" and placing specific light emitters or changing the gamma coloring on the map)
4/ refine both 2/ and 3 add rocks (normal, collapsible, low hit points barrages/walls, other)
5/ have fun with specific features
features
these may be either acceptable to blizzard' (and get the melee tag) or outrageously blizzard melee forbidden .. they are all awesome melee worthy features nonetheless:
.
elevator effect (for air or ground/air units)
elevator effect corollary: "lost" map areas
swamp (optical) : water limits and terrain height are not well defined and units' vision can be "blurred" (underneath) by animated layers (water, lava..)
swamp (slow effect) : areas slowing down the movement of units (attack speed included)
weapon free zones : areas where all weapons are disabled
spell free zones : areas where all spells are disabled
mana / energy rejuvenation zones : areas where all units energy count is maxed out at very quick rate
bridges: an area on two levels yet separated.. (both giving access (see tunnels)) (if the bridge is destroyed both areas wound/kill units in either levels but differently (one on top of the other, under: massive effect / over the bridge: less ); all units are pushed from the point of destruction to closest 'safe zone' if surviving)
change of scene: (like a destroyed bridge) change layout until the end of the game (bridge in this case is just the example, a volcano erupting changing the layout until the end of the game is a different visual, but it remains the same thing: a change to the layout until end of game)
moving neutral units such as trains (acting as destructible moving walls (slows movement and attack speed of close nearby units (slightly))) or convoys (ground or air) timed into "build order timings" (trendy or classical)
lava rising : areas that periodically become unusable for a defined period of time, killing units in said areas, changing layouts and gameplay imperatives deriving from layouts, the visual reverts in synch with the effects
storm rising : areas that periodically become unusable for a defined period of time, pushing units away from said areas, yet the zones remain visually the same (for instance locust would attack and not prevent unit movement, the layout is still the same))
more rocks: production of destructible units that gradually change the layout (for instance: low hit point rocks appearing to form a wall or in a preset (or random) pattern that slowly fills the screen)
teleporter zones allowing for tunnels
teleporter zones forming a "spherical" map (8 ins and outs around the edges of the map
...
I want to share some of my thoughts on expansions and how there need to be variation in the game.
Currently there is one variation called the gold base that is usually in the center of the map and sometimes there are rocks preventing you from building your Nexus there. One of the fact about a gold base is that the gold minerals nods deplete faster then regular blue mineral nods.
The first fantasy expansion base is a half gold base where the rocks cover the gold mineral nods. You can build your Nexus at the optimal mining distance from the minerals nods but as for the Gold minerals, You will still be able to mine from some of the gold minerals that are in the rock pile but the mining path will not be optimal. Also there is some gold mineral nod in the center of the rock pile that is untouchable so until you can remove the rock pile you wont get to them.
The second idea is to to have a Rich Vespene Geyser base where the rich geysers are covered by rocks. Again you will be able to build you Nexus at the optimal mining distance from the resource nods but you will haft to remove the rock pile to get the Assimilator on the geyser to start harvesting your rich vespene gas.
Having variation in the expansion base will bring new light and understanding in how the game can be played and direct certain paths that the player could go down just by the way the map is made and where the key bases are to have are at. This is easy to understand when you see the Force Field at the ramp is follows the same characteristic design pattern. This Setup needs a ramp for it to be use to its full potential same can be said about a base setup that will allow Carriers to be effective unit to have in the army.