Empire Builder 2

Purple town

Sequel to Empire Builder 2.

This game is very unfinished compared to Empire Builder 1. This page is mainly for feedback until a website is created. Reviews are reviews and are not ideal for providing feedback... unfortunately Blizzard failed to implement the ability to give feedback as a seperate mechanism.

You want to give feedback? Don't keep anything from me. Criticise this map as much as you want.

Uploaded on EU and NA, newest on NA

If you want to donate to help with this project, use paypal link: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_donations&business=M82BJDZSU5BKU&lc=GB&item_name=Empire%20Builder&currency_code=GBP&bn=PP%2dDonationsBF%3abtn_donateCC_LG%2egif%3aNonHosted

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  • Avatar of draconius15 draconius15 Jul 03, 2014 at 05:56 UTC - 0 likes

    A few things that needs to be fixed or litterally taken out of the game.

    1) World govern economical crisis. This should be taken out of the game, or change it so you get a god damn reason for having an economic reason. Same as give a timer for it. And make so it can't just appear after 10 minutes of gameplay. Since this has destroyed me multiple times in a row just because apparently my economy and food production was too good so the world apparently gets a fit and all of a sudden my economy is gone, and I have nothing to defend with. So either change it, or take it out since it ain't working.

    2) A powerful necromancer has appeared. Which is 100% allied with the Protoss, and before comming to my place had 120 zombies and kept on spawning them from thin air, on easy, this unit overall has 9k hp so it should be a damn Suicidal difficulty unit. Not an Easy unit specially when it takes 1 damage from all sources of damage and deals 120 minimum damage and each zombie does 30 damage 40 against armoured which grows every second apparently.

    3) Spawning unfair units. Ok so we set up a command post, we build the first 10 houses with farms we build a barracks and add some defenses. And hold and behold 3 Protoss expantions has appeared 1-2 archives has appeared, and don't forget about the 1-3 libraries that has appeared. All over the map, with way to much hp and too little time to take them out, with basic unit.

    So there is a lot of work to be done, a game should be fair, it shouldn't hold your hand, but by god it shouldn't be this unfair, even Dark Souls is not this unfair.

  • Avatar of fritfrat fritfrat Jul 19, 2013 at 20:53 UTC - 0 likes

    Ok, you seriously need to fix this lag issue- there are clearly some triggers going totally haywire and eating up cpu cycles like crazy, especially in single player. There is no other possible reason that it becomes instantly worse when other players leave and that it is so laggy when there is so little going on on the map, especially since the lag for some reason comes in big spikes. I have an i5-2500k overclocked to 4.4Ghz, way faster than the average computer on battle.net, and by an hour or so into the game it literally becomes an unplayable crawl. Post on here or put it in the patch notes when you fix this, since I will certainly not be playing this game again until this is resolved. Here is the replay- a lower end computer probably couldn't even get halfway through without totally puttering out.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47910784/EB2%20dropped.SC2Replay

    Last edited Jul 19, 2013 by fritfrat
  • Avatar of Ultimatejim Ultimatejim Jul 19, 2013 at 06:36 UTC - 0 likes

    Couple of things I've noticed on the new patch so far:
    I tested this patch on easy to get a feel for the new system of army building.
    Colonial militia and pulse gunners are selected as the same unit when you ctrl+click or double click on either one.
    Spawns still falling off the map. There was a vault that played the sound bit, but no text, ping, or spawn showed up. Only happened once.
    The event where the militia come to help is odd. They seem to get much stronger over time. You might want to scale it down a smidge. They blew through 90% of the boss's base before being killed at around 45 minutes. I had to wall it off so they couldn't get in and keep them from releasing him too soon.
    The H key for high rises is still conflicting with the research center, which is also H.
    There were other things I noticed, but forgot to write them down in time and have since forgotten. I'll edit this when I remember them.

  • Avatar of Ultimatejim Ultimatejim Jul 12, 2013 at 22:16 UTC - 0 likes

    I second the spam apology. xD
    As for the farm-income: I now retract my statements. I have been trying to do a build using the mines as a viable source of income. It's very slow to start, but it does work. At 1.5 hours, I had a steady income of 200k per tick.
    I did not realize that this type of economy only gives you the MAXIMUM of what you can export each turn. If you're in debt, you're not actually being penalized for the debt and THEN given your income for exports. The exports are a flat rate that never seems to exceed that limit, so long as you're in debt, and also do not go below that limit when in debt. It's kind of odd and doesn't make sense, but it works in the regard that it does provide room for growth at a reasonable rate. It's really no better than house-spamming. It's just easier to manage. But when it comes to late game and you suddenly run out of power, you're SCREEEEEEEWED. lol. Whole economy SHUT DOWN. That was awkward.
    As for the mines disappearing issue, that's definitely a thing.
    Also, I don't know if this was intentional, but the bad-stuff generator that spawned in my last match didn't do anything. Not sure what bad-stuff generators are supposed to do.
    I checked it and its buff said "good stuff". That doesn't seem right.
    The oil well level 2's disappearing are a pain still, but you haven't fixed it yet, so just reminding you, anteep.
    And also just a reminder, exporting oil doesn't work in any of my games, so that's definitely an issue.

    As for strategies, I feel the multiple economy strats are actually pretty balanced so far and I enjoy each of them. Exporting-economy is a little better in that you never have to worry about feeding people or sustaining a population. One thing I noticed is that I wasn't bothered by the economy fluctuations. For people using the export feature, when the economy is booming or dumps, it should also go up and down in value slightly. It'd make it so either strat would work similarly, but function very differently in build, keeping both relatively close in balance.

    Otherwise, no new issues to report until next patch.

    Edit: Pulsegunners and medics do not have the option to disband.

    Last edited Jul 13, 2013 by Ultimatejim
  • Avatar of fritfrat fritfrat Jul 11, 2013 at 02:02 UTC - 0 likes

    I don't think the problem is in the concept of selling food as much as the balance of it. One, as I mentioned, exporting food currently gives you twice as much as it's supposed to. Two, addressing and making negative income matter will also make a very big difference in its effectiveness.

    Building on the inaccessible cliffs, as it is right now with just a space crunch, I think is pretty needed. I would encourage either keeping them accessible or making much bigger bases if we cannot build in the inaccessible areas.

    A couple more bugs; here is a replay of me soloing nightmare.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47910784/EB2%20Nightmare%20Solo.SC2Replay

    First, the enemies keep going towards my buildings on the inaccessible cliffs only to just run into the wall. They should be programmed to only attack buildings they can reach (which of course includes the command center, which is what we need to be protecting anyways).

    Second, if a sentry shoots a shot at a mine, dies, and then its shot hits/kills the mine, the mine is permanently destroyed and does not come back. This can be seen at 40:20 (at my mines on the right) and 56:35 (at my mines on the left) in the replay I uploaded.

    The multiple voting seems to work in that if I click nightmare and then click suicidal 20 times, it will register my vote as nightmare, so that seems to be only an aesthetic issue rather than functional.

    And finally, while I did have fun in said replay, I do start to feel that I do exactly the same thing every game, just making tons of farms, cannons, reapers, mines, research, and power plants.. Perhaps replay value would be increased if more strategies were made viable.

    Also, a couple things that I would love you forever for would be 1) being able to upgrade cannons to gun turrets, even if at a premium, so long as I don't have to re-place them down and 2) being able to upgrade level 1 mines directly to lvl 5 boreholes if you have power and the required money.

    Thanks as always for such great work :) Sorry if me and jim are spamming you too much, haha.

    Last edited Jul 11, 2013 by fritfrat
  • Avatar of Ultimatejim Ultimatejim Jul 10, 2013 at 21:43 UTC - 0 likes

    It just feels like it's one or the other in terms of economy. I see everyone doing nothing but farm spamming. It takes up gross amounts of room and is 10X faster than waiting for buildings to fill up. I just don't see why anyone would even bother doing houses if that's the way to go for a win-win situation all the time, especially when they're in debt by the tens of thousands and suffering no penalty for it. There's gotta be a more balanced way to go about it.

    And I only mentioned making the cliffs impassable because it seems that anteep is flip-flopping between making them visible or not. Each patch seems to do one or the other and alternate. The old EB didn't leave much space wasted. With the many unusable areas in this one, it makes it so the cliffs are pretty important if you can manage to get vision on them somehow. But once you manage that, you can just make your empire inaccessible to the enemy. Again, there's gotta be a better way.

    And the forced spawners would be a last resort kind of thing. If a spawner is forced to replace occupying structures, then that means you've covered every single possible spawn point (highly unlikely) and if you've managed to do so, then it also likely means you're probably not going to cry over one or two unfortunate structure losses. You'll be ROLLING in cash if it ever gets that far and it's inconsequential, really.
    If spawn locations were to be marked, I feel it'd give an unfair advantage to the players. I would personally block off the entrances to them and bunker them up, so whenever one spawns, we're already there. Knowledge is power, after all.

    Edit: Okay, so I have confirmed that the second game on this new patch I played ALSO would not let me export oil. Last game it started letting me after a while, but this time it straight up didn't work.
    Also on the same topic of oil, it appears that oil wells disappear when killed after being upgraded to level 2. VERY annoying when you're basing half your economy off of oil sales. Metal mines work fine, though. Higher level oil wells would be nice, too.
    I'm really liking the balancing in this game vs the old one. It costs to keep oil wells running, so upgrading them costs income. Assuming you are able to export the oil, it wouldn't really matter, but that's a topic we've been discussing already, as you've likely seen.

    Last edited Jul 11, 2013 by Ultimatejim
  • Avatar of fritfrat fritfrat Jul 10, 2013 at 14:57 UTC - 0 likes

    Haha I've got to try that multiple voting thing before it gets fixed.

    I disagree about making exports happen before the tax round- if you do that, people like me (who have been building 100% farms and no cities longer than anyone) will just revert back to manually selling it after the tick, which is just annoying. Negative power/money/food should all just be proportioned upkeep, sustaining whatever buildings that they can- that by far makes the most intuitive sense.

    I also think you shouldn't make the unusable cliffs impassable; they happen to contain a big percentage of the map's space where you can build, especially along the top. Plus, it's very strategic to build defensive structures on the high ground. It's fine as long as your CC has to be on accessible land, which it currently does.

    But ya, +1 for more metal/oil in the right top of the map. If you do force spawners to spawn with destroying buildings, those locations should be clearly demarcated as potential spawning places so we know not to put our power plants there and stuff.

    Last edited Jul 10, 2013 by fritfrat
  • Avatar of Ultimatejim Ultimatejim Jul 10, 2013 at 02:53 UTC - 0 likes

    More thoughts after playing a bit. Oil is being weird when exporting. It wasn't working at first, then it was. Not a clue what that's about.
    there was literally NO oil or metal in the top right that game. Put more oil/metal spawns up there to even it out a bit.
    I'm seeing more and more people doing this "I'm broke, but I can just sell all my stuff and make bank" exploit. It's weird. They make money from farms, but have no population at all. Just the houses they start with. It's not a bad idea, but it's looking more like that's the way to go. Houses are too slow and exporting food just brings money in faster. Then you can get boreholes and oil wells to export even greater valued goods. I have no suggestion atm. It's just kind of lame when they're technically in debt.
    Wait, maybe you should make it so they earn money appropriately from their auto-exports, but the debt-ticker happens 1 second later and deducts from their earnings. It doesn't appear to be doing that as it is. I might be wrong since it was late in the game when I experienced debt and just started exporting my goods.
    Late game, buildings do the funny visual glitch and start bugging out on the mini map. I figure that's not something you can take care of, but it's worth mentioning if it hasn't already been brought up.
    Then there's the issue that frit mentioned about the spawners just spawning in bottom left (off the map) when they cannot be placed or whatever. If it's because they're unable to be placed, I think you should have their spawn calculate a new position so it does get placed properly.. If all positions are blocked, FORCE a position by destroying whatever it is that's in the way (excluding command centers).
    Then there's the bit about unusable cliffs. Instead of blocking the ability to build by messing up LoS, how about you just make them impassable. I KNOW there's an option for that. I've used it. Make it so nothing can walk around on those areas and then make it so nothing can be built on them either.
    That's all I can think of right now. I'll play again later and let you know more.

    EDIT: Okay, this legitimate PISSED me off. Small game size only gets 1 vote per person, right? Only 3 people voted this time out of 5. One person somehow smashed the button and got 3 votes for no ai and it trumped the other two people who voted. That needs to be fixed. Multiple votes for one person is pretty dickish.

    Last edited Jul 10, 2013 by Ultimatejim
  • Avatar of Ultimatejim Ultimatejim Jul 09, 2013 at 17:17 UTC - 0 likes

    What I think would be a good compromise to the army issue would be to scale their cost with their upgraded value. Yes, you upgrade them to the point of being unstoppable, but can you now afford them? Most of the time, yes. Some people may go bankrupt, though. I figure do exactly what you were doing with the tech. Double the price for each upgrade. 20 credits, doubled each upgrade, would be 10,240. Seeing as how most normal players should be earning over 150k a tick, even the tanks would be afforable. My money is usually in the tens of millions (I don't actually know how much since it just reverts to .".." after too much), so I can afford any army come end of game, even with the scaling cost. It'll cut WAAAAAAAAAY down on unit spam and make people think twice about upgrading their armies. Win-win in terms of balancing. The ONLY issue I can see with this would be killing the HQ in the end. But then again, I can do that solo as it stands on very hard mode. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, it'll force people to coordinate their armies and take him down together - How it's supposed to work.
    Frit brings up a good point about people abusing the market system. I mentioned this a loooooong time ago. I mentioned there should be penalties (aside from being "broke") to the people who forego a reasonable economy and base their empire solely on the production and sale of goods, like gradual degradation of building foundation. The old EB functioned just like that. Buildings started to break down the longer you were in debt. You should make that a thing again. As for power, I'm okay with how it functions right now. Everything shuts down for a tick and then slowly restarts. That works fine. Yeah, it's going to hurt you economy, but it'll grow back pretty quick. I also don't mind the long build times on the more critical buildings. They're big, expensive, important buildings. Of course they're going to take a while.
    I haven't had a chance to try the July 8 patch still and won't until tonight, but those are mostly in response to frit

    Last edited Jul 09, 2013 by Ultimatejim
  • Avatar of fritfrat fritfrat Jul 08, 2013 at 21:22 UTC - 0 likes

    Ya, I guess after playing some more, I should just mention-

    The tech upgrades I guess do get out hand- I built 249 research centers and was still only able to get to the 800k upgrades. I think you just need to put a max upgrade in- in theory you could allow the research center to be upgraded, but that would require more city/farm upgrades, and it's an endless, exponential circle. You have to draw the line somewhere, and perhaps making the 50k or 100k upgrades the max is a reasonable choice.

    Everyone gets reapers. Even without oil, if you're massing something, you want something small with long range (more units shooting at once time) and fast (for such a big map). Personally, with such a big map, I think the only way to prevent such dominance would be to make it so all units are around the same speed and larger units have really good splash to make up for their size. Real splash, though, not the super-slow-projectile kind which no one wants to use!

    I also think some higher-end defensive structures would be a good idea, since essentially all good players seem to only spend their armies on offense, not defense. Especially if air units are added, very strong anti-air defenses would be critical. And relating to my last point, I think slower units would only be made viable if you could build strong defensive structure.

    Decreasing the supply limit would also be helpful in preventing lag, since if you have a game of 6 players there will be at least one player that can't handle two 500 unit armies flinging themselves at each other.

    Speaking of lag, the bug I mentioned before seems to start happening right after the protoss commander dies. After he dies, it slowly and slowly gets more and more laggy, even if there are other people still there. Once the last player besides me left, though, it quickly shot down from 20fps to 0fps, so it seems like it "accelerates" to 0 fps faster with just 1 player.

    Power is a problem in that everything you own is shut down if you don't have enough problem, but money is the other way in that everything is totally fine if you don't have enough of it. Even before you added in exports, my strategy has been to build mass amounts of food and sell it (I re-bound down-scroll to left click so I could sell hundreds of thousands rapidly), abusing the fact that I could have a -20k upkeep but just sell the food and build the buildings I needed before the next tick. With exporting, this is made even easier; with a -500k upkeep, I still always had my food balance at the beginning of the round in money to build stuff with (which is how I got the 249 research centers I mentioned). I would recommend making money, power, and food all act so if you do not have enough, it pays the upkeep for the most important things and for what it can, but then skips the rest. Heck, you could even let the player prioritize the distribution, if you feel like getting fancy with coding.. a simcity-ish/Age-of-empires-ish game I played when I was really young called Caesar III actually let you do that with the water and electricity and stuff.

    I also think build times are an issue. The actual units are so darn inexpensive compared to the masses of money you have at the end, it's basically a contest as to who has more barracks and who gets to each others' CC or barracks first. The upgrade to reduce the time is a great addition, obviously, but I would personally prefer expensive units that are limited by how much money I have as opposed to being always able to pop out maxed out armies the second the previous one dies. Ultimatejim is getting at the point that he would like his "bigger base" matter at the end, but in the way of more upgrades; I explained already why I think upgrades should have a cap, so I think it the "bigger base" can matter by actually being able to produce a bigger army, with a much higher cost to build. Perhaps fixing the meaningless-negative-upkeep issue would also fix the army size thing, but making the upkeep lower and build cost higher 1) puts more value on the outcome of the fights and 2) makes it harder for players to accidentally build way too much on accident.

    I understand the long build times on things such as the school, clinic, and university- it makes it so the investment of saving up has lag time before it kicks in, which is great. However, things like urban development, the clinic upgrades, and the power plant especially just have obscenely long build times that really don't seem to serve a purpose.

    Other bugs: selling food in the store seems to give you 0.5, but exporting gave me 1 credit per food. Both research center and high density housing are bound to the hotkey "H". Sometimes near the end, if there are buildings where the protoss building was going to warp in, it still shows the message, but it pings the left bottom of the map and there is no building to be seen.

    EDIT: Also, about some players starting near metal and some not starting near any at all.. I think in theory it would be fine for people to go out and get them, but in practice it is really only possible on hard difficulties if there is free metal that you can protect with high-ground cannons leading to the mines. What I ended up finding the most effective was just running around and upgrading them, extracting as much metal as I could until they died, and then I could use my metal-costing units to defend my metal mines. I guess this just needs to be tried out a little more to see how big of a disadvantage it ends up giving the player. It also seems there is usually not much metal in the right top side of the map.

    Fantastic work, as always!! Were you already working on the export system before I mentioned it, or did you really add it that quickly? That's pretty impressive either way :)

    Last edited Jul 08, 2013 by fritfrat

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Date created
Sep 18, 2012
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Sep 18, 2012
Development stage
Beta
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