Empire Builder 2

Purple town

Sequel to Empire Builder 2.

Superior to EB1

Found on EU and NA

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  • Avatar of iceman12121212 iceman12121212 Oct 30, 2015 at 22:49 UTC - 0 likes

    This is my favorite map in the entire arcade, hands down. I know the same is true for other "regulars" who I play with frequently. Thank you for this phenomenal contribution to the SC2 community.

    I'm including below a couple suggestions. Am happy to discuss, if helpful - please let me know.

    A. Discrepancies:

    The following "measurements" were taken in a game with no AI and with the Oligarchy (i.e., no buffs or debuffs) and the first Econ choice (i.e., (5%) upkeep on military but no other economic buffs or debuffs):

    • A wind turbine is listed as requiring 25 credits upkeep but it ends up reducing tax balance by 50 credits
    • A metal mine (level I) is listed as requiring 25 credits upkeep but it ends up reducing tax balance by 20 credits (the same is true of levels II, III, IV and V which reduce tax balance by a total of 40, 60, 80 and 100 credits respectively)

    B. Gameplay:

    1. Quantifying impact of Clinic as well as the Genetic Screening and Cloning research options in the University

    It would be helpful if possible to quantify the increase in energy regeneration rate (which is what I assume is impacted by this research.)

    2. Showing level of upgrades on Protoss units

    At the moment, Protoss units will always show 0/0/0 in their shield/armor/attack upgrade stats. It would be helpful if possible to have these stats correspond to the number of archives that were not destroyed before the timer expired. For example, if 1/1/1 (i.e., one archive not destroyed on time) were to correspond to a certain shield armor / armor / weapon value, it would help players quickly determine what upgrades to get on army units / defensive structures.

    3. Giving option to disband/demolish or relinquish Mines/Boreholes and Oil Wells

    The idea here is that if we are stuck in a negative tax balance or negative power (due to Boreholes) situation, it makes sense that relinquishing control of a Mine/Borehole or Oil Well as one option to instantly ease the situation.

    4. Having the benefit of the Tech Income Upgrade (at university) scale exponentially (rather than linearly), to match the fact that upgrade costs scale exponentially

    So for example, let's say that we have a University (+5 Tech Income), a School (+5 TI) and three Laboratory Vs (+75 TI), for a total of +85 TI. In the current version of the map, the first time we research the tech income +25% upgrade would result in our tech income increasing to 106 TI (i.e., 85 + 85 * 0.25). The second time we research the tech income upgrade would result in tech income jumping to 128 TI (i.e., 85 + 85 * 0.25 * 2).

    My proposal is to structure the mechanic such that the second tech income research upgrade would have a cumulative impact on tech income. In other words, the second time we research the upgrade (in the example above) would result in a tech income of 133 (i.e., 85 * 1.25 ^ 2).

    Although the difference between the two approaches is minimal after two rounds of upgrades, the cumulative approach results in meaningfully higher tech income after 10 or so upgrades. Using the above example: after 10 tech income upgrades, the current version of the mechanic would result in tech income of 298 whereas the proposed cumulative mechanic would result in tech income of 792.

    It remains to be seen whether this approach would maintain balance but I thought I'd offer a suggestion as to how it might be possible to fix the fundamental issue: upgrade costs scale exponentially but upgrade benefits scale linearly.

    5. Clarifying that each unit of population yields 3 credits per tick

    I deduced this using some quick calculations but it would be helpful for players to understand this right away for purposes of managing economy.

    6. Quantifying the impact of economic depressions and booms

    I'm not sure how this is implemented in the game. I suspect that a depression (or boom) is simulated by reducing (or increasing) the credit per population multiplier (i.e., which is at a default of 3 during non-depression/non-boom periods). I do think it's important that the quantification of the depression/boom is communicated to the players.

    7. Impacting the per-tick income of export-based empires during economic depressions and booms

    Conceptually, it does not make sense that export-based empires are relatively immune to economic depressions/booms as compared to their tax-based counterparts.

    One fix would be to change food/metal/oil prices: an increase in price during booms and a decrease in price during depressions (e.g., food drops to 0.85 in depression and increases to 1.15 in boom; similar changes for metal and oil). Though I imagine that this would depend on the game engine's ability to handle decimal values and round them as appropriate.

    C. Mechanics:

    1. Building upgrades and current selection

    Proposed change: It would simplify management of building upgrades - namely for farms, houses and tech labs - if upgraded buildings remain in the current selection. For example, let's say I have four Farm Is currently selected. If I upgrade one of them to a Farm II, then that farm is removed from the current selection, which now includes three Farm Is. The change I'm proposing is that upgrading one of the farms to a Farm II should result in the current selection containing all four farms (with the "Tab" key allowing us to shift focus between the Farm Is and the Farm II).

    Why this would be helpful?: The reason this would be beneficial is that it allows control-group based management of building upgrades. In other words, as long as I'm diligent about adding newly constructed farms to my control group dedicated for Farms, then I can manage upgrades without looking back at my base.

    2. Keyboard shortcuts for building construction

    Proposed change: At the moment, there are a few overlaps in the keyboard shortcuts for ordering the construction of buildings, both via the Capital and Worker Bot:

    Construction via Capital:

    • "H" used for both HD Housing and Research Complex -> propose using "O" for Research Complex
    • "U" used for both Fusion Power Plant and University -> propose using "Y" for University

    Construction via Worker Bot:

    • "B" used for both Substation and Wall -> propose using "A" for Wall

    3. Unit priority when using mouse for boxing

    Proposed change: At the moment, Mines take precedence over all units (including worker bots). For example, let's say I have 3 worker bots next to a Silver Mine. In the current version, if a draw a box over these three worker bots which contains a part of the Silver Mine, I will end up with the Silver Mine selected instead of the workers.

    Why this would be helpful?: It would greatly simplify the management of Worker Bots when securing ownership of resources or controlling Army units. It would also align with the boxing priority of traditional, melee SC2.

    Last edited Oct 30, 2015 by iceman12121212: Formatting
  • Avatar of VasVadum VasVadum Oct 24, 2015 at 16:58 UTC - 1 like
    Emitter early game issues, I have a suggestion or two:
    Make the capital have an effect of "radiation shielding" so people inside can not die because of emitters.
    Add a non-upgradable home that has radiation shielding that stores only 10 population per home.
    You can also make it so that your capital always provides 10 supplies.

    There's an exploit in the game where you can't go bankrupt.
    Change the per tick money stuff so that upkeep and other fee related things are taken after your income is generated.
    You may also need to calculate it in this order:
    Number of population > Food Upkeep = Kill Starved? (affects TaxBal)
    Auto Sell + Tax Balance + Any other added money = Add Balance
    Upkeep + Auto Buy + Any other subtracted money = Subtract Balance

    I think it would be nice if some things worked on a per second basis rather than per tick. So science for example, you'd execute that once per second at 10% it's original value. Not sure if minerals and stuff can do decimal though. Hmm. This was just a thought though.

    I would like to see a release subjugate button, so I can let someone have their empire back.

    It might also be nice to see an archon mode where two people can control one civilization.

    I believe that the protoss should have some anti-infentry units that will be like tanks, killing hoards of foot units that people tend to use as a standard tactic. Also their base needs better anti air defenses around the edges and should upgrade over time to be more difficult, not just more health and more damage but, every 30 minutes, the protoss main base should add more turrets to it's edges and stuff. I have some ideas for that, you know how to reach me for discussing.

    End game boss is too pitiful, shields only? I usually sneeze on him and he dies. Take out his hoard of minions and he is made of glass. Give him a massive area attack, like stomping on the ground causing an immediate nuke radius attack that kills all foot soldiers, causes half max health damage to all tanks, and ignores all air. Just for example.

    Beginners have a problem getting adjusted to the game as you saw, but I just now thought of a way we can help remedy that. Use player saving slots like other games do, such as RPGs and that Parasite map where it saves "the amount of times you've played". Beginners can only choose disabled, or Easy, and can not choose normal, until they have won one game or been in a game that won on that or a higher difficulty.

    You can use this also to save a capital state, so you can choose it in one button the next time you play, three buttons on your capital at the bottom of the list that are your save slots, Save1, Save2, Save3. Possibly with hover info to show you what you last saved. And a "Save Government" button type in your capital after you choose all three. This way I can select Communism, that 4th military option, and that 4th religion option in one click.

    Might also be nice if you just have the new capital auto selected for the player so they don't have to click it again after choosing.

    Some sort of bonus to the player who kills the boss could be given to them the next and future rounds that they play, such as one additional glowy house maker upon placing capital (Sorry, forgot the name :P) But this is up for discussion as well.

    Lastly, some bug/exploit fixes that should be done;
    Place NoBuilding pathing in the crevasses on the map. This will stop enemy buildings from spawning down there, and subsequently enemies from being stuck there too (never seen happen).

    Move the enemy nexus one square away from the map corner on both sides, I've seen that some super immortals get stuck behind it.

    Make capturing resources not let a change of ownership happen so fast, like a 10 second wait time? Making it un-attackable for the duration of time. After that, it gets 20 shields again.

    Make captured resources that have a building on them, no longer have a shield. Instead, they will be destroyed and player must re-capture, then build on it again if they want it back. If you want to swap ownership to someone else, let someone click on the "allied" resource, then click a button in that menu that says "Give Ownership" that pings the owner of the resource and asks if they should give control with a yes or no button on it, denying the player from asking again for 60 seconds.

    The Diplomacy menu should not show empty player slots on it.

    Lastly, I feel you should make it so we can send all resources, not just money metal and science. So food and oil could be sent too. Also an option to share powergrid with someone could be added to your capital.

    Perhaps using a command to let you set the amount you wish to send and a series of buttons?
    Like I type in chat -set 1500, which is an invisible command that doesn't get emitted, and then click the "send food to playerx" button and it sends them 1500 if I have it.

    Or perhaps, using your diplomacy menu, you let users input an amount they wish to send, and have a credits, metal, science, food, and oil button there. The input would be at the top, the buttons would be after each player's name, using a colored row for each player so you don't click the wrong one by accident.


  • Avatar of Anteep Anteep Oct 06, 2015 at 23:28 UTC - 1 like

    Interesting feedback, I've read everything you put.

    Solar powered vehicles are an interesting idea. I was planning to add some other electric vehicles that operate in different ways too. Bots do need a disband option yes.

    "Evil" isn't allied to the Protoss, at least all the times I've played, and plenty of times I have seen the Necro die to the Protoss. I will double check this, but I've seen them attack eachother many times.

    As for difficulty, your feedback is at odds with many other peoples' opinions. Many people seem to find the game quite easy at the moment with recent patches, even on hard and similar difficulties. I'm not sure how easier I could make easy without it being dull to be honest. The difficulty settings seem to work fine so far with most players and err on the side of an easier game. I never intended this game to be incredibly easy, perhaps try different strategy and tactics in the game, quite a few players have solo'd Nightmare let alone easy mode. A learner difficulty could be done, and that's great for a learner, but I'd worry that new players and inexperienced players vote this in a lobby and end up not growing their abilities because they are facing an inept opposition. I do want a level of difficulty to be present. In short: so far the difficulty isn't putting off the majority of players and the game is easier than it has ever been. I know this might not be the response you want, but honestly I must take into account many other people's feedback too - I've had many people message me that the game is too easy for them right now. A learner difficulty that can only be chosen if the game is solo is probably the best solution here. I don't think I added difficulty scaling, although it was in EB1, I'll have to check. I think the best option for you right now is to play more games with others and see how they handle the AI - for example you say armies are not an option, yet for several people armies are the main and sometimes only option and defences are not so viable in the long run.

    And also: some empire choices are more soloable than others, some work better in a team.

    Emitters: yes, they are lethal, but economies with mixed income sources can survive against this, ideally you must destroy the emitter as soon as possible and it won't respawn. It is weak and does not have good defences, so a group of units can take it out with ease. It might be a surprise to a new player, but if you see it again you'll be sure to eliminate it ASAP. It's possible that I might require it time to activate first before killing populations. At the moment emitters are designed to be immediate threats that must be responded to.

    Highways: I've thought about an upgrade to farms that give them a similar buff.

    Difficulty bug: yeah I should probably stop people from voting for the last two difficulties again.

    Downloading the map: the map is downloadable through the editor

    Last edited Oct 06, 2015 by Anteep


  • Avatar of VasVadum VasVadum Oct 05, 2015 at 16:10 UTC - 0 likes

    Another idea, is to allow you to donate resources to the Colonies, so that they send you aid sooner. This game appears to be 100% impossible solo, no matter what government I choose. :/ The random events are survivable.

    EDIT: Also, make the necro spawn enemy to the protoss. The protoss hate any other race, so why would they and the zerg and zombies be working together? Make them fight each other.

    Last edited Oct 05, 2015 by VasVadum
  • Avatar of VasVadum VasVadum Oct 05, 2015 at 14:03 UTC - 0 likes

    First Impressions & My first playthrough thoughts

    I miss highways from the Kenji version of the map. :P Though, I didn't like that they were all 1x1 only, took a lot to make a 2x2 path. Would like 1x1 and 2x2 versions though.

    I've noticed that the emitter is overpowered just like stated. It deleted 100% of my economy and made the game absolutely impossible. Which it pretty much already is. i didn't even know where the emitter was. There was a protoss gateway directly outside our base, spawned like against the wall letting the enemy walk into our base even though we blocked off the only door, the photons had spawned around it too to protect it, some leaned on the wall sideways. I couldn't find the emitter, and once they killed all my troops, the game was lost, it was impossible. Zero population and I wasn't allowed to build anything else, nor was my friend.

    Does the emitter have some sort of range? Or is it a total map thing? If it's a total map thing, it's too overpowered, and needs to be set to a range, or turned WAY down. If it's a local area thing only, it needs to have a red blip or something on the map that can be distinguished so we can find the most deadly of the things around us to kill it.

    Other than that, the game is too difficult on Easy. Armies were killed in an instant by everything, the only thing that lasted was our door defense which lasted two hours. The defenses could outlast because of the glitch in AI path finding that walls disallow enemies to find a path and so their random pathing causes them to walk past the wall instead of go up to it. That's the only reason we lasted 2 hours, armies aren't possible. I had maximum military focus, that Elite Soldiers government type, and wow. Random spawn of allied AI had 20 research defense and attack while I was still at 7 and couldn't buy anymore because it cost 2k research each.

    I think you should add a Learner difficulty in just like Kenji's version of the older one, that disables the random spawned bases and only sets up the main base. The random spawned bases are too often and too powerful for Easy. We did Disabled first just to learn the units and how they work and stuff, but switched to Easy thinking, hey, we might be able to make some decent progress but nope. We were stuck inside our base all game. Not allowed to leave because no oil, no metal, and marines walk out there and die before they can say "ohshi...."

    Also, the timer at the top that counts down, is slightly under the income window, and can you add an income timer? I just feel a bit more secure with my income with an income timer.

    Some suggestions and such

    I'll give this some more tries. I'd really like to fix a few things in Kenji's version still but I do like how this one is executed, I just think it's much too hard.

    One question though. Does the AI scale in difficulty with the amount of players in the map? If not, it should. I feel that if I tried to play Solo, I'd die too often.

    First suggestion: Make friendly AI events more often on Easy. I'd say 3x more often on Easy, 2x on Normal, 1x on hard, 0.5x on the harder difficulties. Sorry, didn't memorize the exact difficulty names. :P So anything harder than hard, they come 50% less often, while coming 3 times more often on easy.

    Second suggestion: Solar powered vehicles, a few small solar powered vehicles, or scouts even. Along with that, electric powered vehicles that use electricity instead of oil. Has an energy bar so that they use that for electricity storage, and they regain energy so long as they are in a power area (substation or something) shutting down like they are out of oil when their energy depletes. Same for solar vehicles, that gain power during the daylight and burn off their energy during the night.

    Third suggestion: Scout heli, a heli that works like the scout bot, and is only for scouting.

    Fourth suggestion: I want to be able to disband my scout bots and bunkers. So I can get rid of the 30 bots I made all over the map, and so I can replace an old bunker with the upgraded bunker. Or at least, add an upgrade bunker feature to it so I can upgrade it without rebuilding it from scratch. Even if you have to empty it first.

    Final Notes

    Keep up the good work though, I like it. It's just too difficult for us right now.

    Before I forget. After the players vote on a difficulty, the last two difficulties are still clickable afterwords. They don't fade out like the rest. And lastly, I'd like to be able to hover over the homes to see their max storage per level, just like in Kenji's map, it lists all the home upgrade names and each of their storage amounts. Very helpful. All this needs is a tooltip edit so that won't be hard at all. :P I'd help you with some of these things if I could, but you haven't uploaded the map.

  • Avatar of Anteep Anteep Sep 03, 2015 at 17:54 UTC - 0 likes

    huge update released - 4.9

    Last edited Sep 03, 2015 by Anteep
  • Avatar of Anteep Anteep Aug 21, 2015 at 12:12 UTC - 0 likes

    OK I just got back from a holiday in the Baltic states so I will see what I can do now.

    Protoss emitter: it is supposed to be deadly, and force a player to deal with it as soon as possible, however, I might add an activation timer to it so that the player has some time to assemble a force to deal with it before it becomes active.

    Air defence: AA vehicles and infantry will be added, and an improved air defence will be available.

    Subjugated players and revolutions: I will allow countries to try and split from their emperor, and allow all players to change their governments, militaries etc. There will be consequences, and there will also be later game government types.

    Cruise missiles and ICBMS: that's a good idea, I had a look at the archangel missile ability.

    Air transport: will be added

    Sight vision: defences have already had their sight increased in the latest update

  • Avatar of Darkstaron123 Darkstaron123 Aug 13, 2015 at 18:04 UTC - 0 likes

    Please reduce collosuss damage or add building that have big vission sight, becaus his range is too big. Remove Protoss Emmiter, change immortal special ability to more shield, but no reduce dmg (shields 2.5x like)

  • Avatar of Ubermarine Ubermarine Aug 10, 2015 at 19:11 UTC - 1 like

    - Protoss emitter is way too powerful as it can cripple a player's economy in a few minutes which leads to the player being overrun by the Protoss.

    - Aerial units need some balancing because as it stands there's no real effective way to counter them, adding specialized anti-air infantry and vehicle would be a way to solve this problem.

    - It would be nice for subjugated players to have the option to revolt against the player that subjugated them.

    - Add Nuclear ICBM (Or Cruise Missile if that seems a bit too over the top), use the Archangel Missile ability in the editor to make this. (Change the damage effect, impact model and sound, and boom, you got a crude but working ICBM that is more realistic then the Ghost Nuclear Strike Ability)

    - Aerial Transport unit, we really really need that.

    - A more effective anti-air defence unit, the flakker is absolutely useless against helicopters or/and bombers with 20 armor upgrades.

  • Avatar of Wrathscar Wrathscar Jan 14, 2015 at 00:25 UTC - 0 likes

    1) population decrease debuff of the protoss emitter need to be redesigned, because it is 99% fatal. the debuff can be changed to something like capping the population growth or reducing the movement of all units.

    2) No overlord, or necromancer, or emitter debuff before 45 mins pls. lost 5 out of 5 games because of the above events comming too soon, before even unlocking airport/vehicle tech. If you insist on keeping them in the game, then pls nerf them so they can be easily dealt with with basic cannons + biological army

    3) pls dont make two debuffs come at the same time. Give at least a 10 min break for players to take a breath. (imagine you just won a pyrric victory against a wave of necromancer&zombies, hot on its heel come the world recession, with protoss expanding across the map and protoss armys knocking at your door)

    Alternatively, for things mentioned in 2 and 3, you can make them exclusive to higher difficulties to satisfy players who would like to cha(tor)llenge(ture) themselves.

    4) Dont recommend random spawning of protoss bases. Other wise they can appear in some locations unreachable by ground forces (cliff, abyss). It is probably fine if it is a gateway, but in case it is an archive or an emitter, doomed.

    5) the timer for the archive is bugged. It remains there even the archive has been destroyed.

    6) need to increase the sight of the cannon to 8, equal to its range.

    7) stronger and faster air units.


Date created
Sep 18, 2012
Last update
Sep 18, 2012
Development stage
  • enUS
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