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What should be the Zerg unit options?

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    SoulFilcher Author Avatar of SoulFilcher
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    #82 Oct 12, 2011 at 16:09 UTC - 0 likes

    Thanks for the feedback. It actually didn't start as an ambitious project, I just threw in a few factions/broods/tribes and gave them some changes, but I should have known it would become far more complex than I expected.

    The structure used for selecting everything has been an issue since the beginning and many pleyers pointed that out to me. I actually used the starting buildings first, but as I needed room for more buttons I moved to these structures. I just can't figure a way make all the buttons have the same position for CCs, Nexi and Harcheries. Some players asked me to make a dialog at the start of the game, but I don't want to force players to select before they feel they should.

    EDIT: Also, placing it on a dialog would force me to create the dialog again for each new map, so the point of being a mod and thus easily added to new maps would be destroyed.

    And what's the name of your map? I'll check it to see what you have done.

    Last edited Oct 12, 2011 by SoulFilcher

    TheFrozenInferno Regular Shmoe Avatar of TheFrozenInferno
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    #83 Oct 12, 2011 at 16:56 UTC - 0 likes

    I agree that you shouldn't have to pick before you have to, but at the same time, if you can't pick before you need to, that's a problem. Like if you went for a 1 gate FE and you need a stalker so marines don't kite you to death, then you're in a bind because you can't afford a forge in that build.

    My reasoning for suggesting the pylon/depot is that those buildings you would be always getting anyway (unlike a forge), and they have basically empty command cards.

    But if you were still intent on using the starting buildings, couldn't you just use submenu buttons on the command card? Then you could put the whole array on cards 3 and 4. You have a single specializer button in the middle of the command card and that opens up submenu 2 that lets you pick between units and tribe submenu;  then 3 is the units and 4 is the tribe specialization. Seems like a lot of buttons to click though.

    And I haven't played around with it yet, but doesn't that new 'transient' flag that blizzard put in last patch allow you to give ability commands that don't use the unit's command queue? If so, that would actually address my earlier qualm about it eating into build time for other buildings. Then you actually could build/research concurrently with specializing.

    It's better to know that you don't know, than to not know if you know.

    yukaboy Author Avatar of yukaboy
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    #84 Oct 12, 2011 at 17:17 UTC - 0 likes

    @SoulFilcher: Go

    Tal'Darim Need perhaps some zealot modifications. Perhaps with the exact same model, give it a different ability to unlock other than charge. Then remove dark templar. Instead replace it with a Tal'Darim Acolyte with a similar (or different whatever you find it fine) look that basically isn't cloaked at start. Instead it has 100 life and shields and deals 25 damage per hit. Then make its weapon speed about .8 or so. Finally give it an ability perhaps shadow clones im thinking...also...Tal'darim need a special mothership just for them. All of this would be a good start.

    The other tribe...idk...never heard of them before...

    As for the tech issue...if you wanted an alternative, you could place the unit upgrades on the buildings they each effect. Make sure the upgrades are instant. The tribe upgrades could be on your town hall structure.

    TheFrozenInferno Regular Shmoe Avatar of TheFrozenInferno
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    #85 Oct 12, 2011 at 17:37 UTC - 0 likes

    @SoulFilcher:

    Sorry for not replying faster - I've been play testing your map between posts.

    My extended melee map is called Bizarro World. On Bnet, you can search up Bizarro Ice Temple or Bizarro Crevasse.

    This was my first ever custom mapping project. I started it back in October of last year because I was raging at how impossible it seemed to stop 3rax with protoss. So, instead of balance QQ on forums, I just went and nerfed/buffed the units myself.  And eventually I just started learning how to do stuff and coming up with cool ideas for new and old units.

    When I last counted, I think the tech tree is more than 3x as big as before, so all the races have a lot of new options. Although, I'll be the first to admit that I may have made protoss a little overpowered. But they deserve it given how they're being thrashed lately by them korean terrans.

    ****

    I know what you mean about having to redo dialog triggers in maps. It sucks and defeats the purpose. Having to manually update the dependency for each map everytime you make a change to your mod is bad enough.

    SoulFilcher Author Avatar of SoulFilcher
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    #86 Oct 12, 2011 at 17:43 UTC - 0 likes

    @TheFrozenInferno: Go I know early game is a mess. I've seen that a few "experienced" players forget about early game and just wait unitl they build the Forge, but I want to fix early game so they won't need to do it. Well, moving it to pylons/supply seems to be the best option right now, unless I can move it to the starting buildings, but what about Zerg? Overlord? Creep Tumor?

    I don't know if research abilities have a Transient flag, but yes, setting this flag would make upgrades ignore the queue order. I'm not sure I understand your point though.

    @yukaboy: Go The Tal'darim get Nyon, their Executor, as a hero Mothership, as an unique ability it can create a shield around it to reduce incoming damage, but it drains energy constantly. Thanks for the Acolyte idea, I need to remove DTs since Tal'darim hate them.

    Placing the unit upgrades on the structures they effect could work, but some command cards could get a little messy. I'm taking all ideas into consideration, thanks, and when I find the best solution I'm going to change it.

    TheFrozenInferno Regular Shmoe Avatar of TheFrozenInferno
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    #87 Oct 12, 2011 at 18:01 UTC - 0 likes

    @SoulFilcher:

    I checked and there is a transient flag for research abilities. My point was that it doesn't tie up the build queue and you can use the specializations even if something else is researching.

    I know I would hate it if I was researching +1 atk on the forge and it was half done, but then I forgot to specialize, so I can't build an immortal without cancelling the upgrade or waiting another 80 seconds to do so.

    Also, if the specializations were on the starting buildings with their current 4 second build time, it would prevent you from building workers during the time you're upgrading.  If they were instant I guess it wouldn't matter so much, but 4 seconds x the number of specializations can add up in the early game where every second can matter.

    For zerg, I would stick the specialization upgrade on the hatchery because it's never doing anything in the early game. It'll always be unoccupied until you're building a queen or something and can't impact on other build timings. But I don't see anything wrong with putting it on the overlord either

    SoulFilcher Author Avatar of SoulFilcher
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    #88 Oct 12, 2011 at 18:10 UTC - 0 likes

    @TheFrozenInferno: Go Ok, now I get it. I had thought about it, making it transient will solve those issues. As for moving it to the Hatchery, I can't say I'm going to 'give it a try' because everything that is moved to the Hatchery also needs to be added to Lairs and Hives, so I'll delay it. Also their command cards are already confusing, with select larva, research burrow and overlord upgrades, morph, set rally point... I can't look at it and think I could add one more button (most probably 3) to it.

    Hey man, just remember to set the games you play open to public, so it counts for popularity :-)

    Last edited Oct 12, 2011 by SoulFilcher
    yukaboy Author Avatar of yukaboy
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    #89 Oct 12, 2011 at 18:49 UTC - 0 likes

    Ahh...I see a second issue in the tal'darim. Since they hate dark templar, I was just thinking...stalkers AND void rays are both dark templar units. Perhaps those need replacing. Maybe...the phoenix OR scout upgrade could be removed and both are given to them (this removes void rays) while the dragoon is automatic and stalkers are removed completely. Also, the stalkers have a blink upgrade while dragoons have like +2 range upgrade? I think the dragoons need an ability. I'm just not sure what...perhaps...10% chance to revive?

    Last edited Oct 12, 2011 by yukaboy
    SoulFilcher Author Avatar of SoulFilcher
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    #90 Oct 12, 2011 at 19:05 UTC - 0 likes

    @yukaboy: Go Yeah, I know its an issue. Someone from Blizzard said it was an issue when they planned to use them in several campaign missions, but they decided to give them standard Protoss units. The Akilae tribe uses a golden version of Void Rays, and I could do the same for Stalkers, but still they'd look like Dark Templar units.

    Well, I did'nt know what to do with Dragoons, so I gave them their old upgrade. I need to make Dragoons and Stalkers more apart from each other, in their stats and everything else.

    SoulFilcher Author Avatar of SoulFilcher
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    #91 Nov 21, 2011 at 00:27 UTC - 0 likes

    Updated the Lost Temple and Arakan Citadel maps today so the AI will train units like it should. AI may also pick a faction, but wont train unlocked units yet.

    The Arakan Citadel map was on page 12 today. Maybe people are playing it a lot more than I thought.

    rickmary Regular Shmoe Avatar of rickmary
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    #92 Dec 11, 2011 at 21:40 UTC - 0 likes

    I was hooked on this from the first try. But the problem is that nobody is ever on. if someone would tell me when most players are playing it that would be nice. also, perhaps make the blimp for the colonist faction able to "spread propoganda" which would weaken enemy units near and buff friendly units near by making the enemies unsure and the allies more sure. Also, the Tempest's suicide attacks are rather dull, unless ive played an outdated version. Perhaps use Shuriken? up to 12 interceptor type things that use melee. another idea is for the infested terran, what about a defensive structure that uses neural parasites as a weapon, taking controll of up to 4 units and slowly killing them.

    Life is Forfeit

    SoulFilcher Author Avatar of SoulFilcher
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    #93 Dec 11, 2011 at 21:58 UTC - 0 likes

    @rickmary: Go Hi, and welcome to SC2Mapster. Glad you like it. I don't know how many people still play it, I haven't played it myself for some time. Your suggestion for the Blimp unit is cool and easy to get working, I think I'll work on that. The Tempest is just a temporary unit now, when Blizzard finally releases the HoTS expansion I'll have tons of work to do in order to use the new tech tree. The current version of the Tempest will probably be scrapped. For the infested terrans I'd rather work on their "zombifying habilities", I don't want to add more mind controlling abilties to the game.

    Thanks for taking the time to post here, I'm desperate for more feedback cause the mod has been idle for some time now.

    rickmary Regular Shmoe Avatar of rickmary
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    #94 Dec 11, 2011 at 22:15 UTC - 0 likes

    @SoulFilcher: Go

    hm, perhaps allow the queen to infest structures? maybe the maps could be outfitted with destructable colonist structures and vehicles, which could then be infested and used to make more soldiers, or pump out weak infested terrans with limted lifespan at a 10 sec interval

    infested civillian -20 hp - marine speed - 5 damage/sec - 30 sec lifespan

    • edit* I will provide ideas, im a very creative person, but im a newbie in the editor. atm im working on a 3 player FFA map with hostile units scattered around these are spawned 3 at a time every 15 seconds
    Last edited Dec 11, 2011 by rickmary
    SoulFilcher Author Avatar of SoulFilcher
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    #95 Dec 12, 2011 at 00:21 UTC - 0 likes

    @rickmary: Go While the idea of neutral civilians around the map is good, my maps haven been strictly melee-oriented, so a player's strenght can't be based on "third party avaiability". In maps with large civilian cities the Infested faction would have a huge advantage, while on standard melee maps it would be useless. I've been thinking about ways to spam infested civilian without the need to train them directly, but I'm unsatisfied with the option so far.

    Well, if you take the time to share ideas, don't worry about the editor, I've managed to create all the abilities I wanted for this mod so far. My problem, as you can already see, is that I'm very selective about the things I include in this mod, so only few ideas pass through my criticism. I hope this is a good thing that will eventually lead this mod to something great ;-)

    And good luck with your own project as well, I'll be around if you have problems with the editor.

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    #96 Dec 13, 2011 at 04:21 UTC - 0 likes

    hm ive been thinking... an infestation ability would reinforce the "choose your faction wisely based on what you are up against" thing. also there is a loophole in blizzards anti infested protoss thing: if the khala is what protects them, then what about the dark templar, who refuse? And ofc zerg are uninfestable so it would be useless. im thinking taking my idea for civilian buildings, and alllowing it to be used by infestors like in sc2 alpha.

    also, the UED could serve as a faction,giving their vikings scatter missiles, and valkeries.

    another thing, keep up the good work mate.

    SoulFilcher Author Avatar of SoulFilcher
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    #97 Dec 14, 2011 at 14:55 UTC - 0 likes

    @rickmary: Go I dont know why Blizzard scrapped that ability, but maybe an ability like that would work for the faction. Like you said, there's no problem in focusing one faction to counter a specific race, so an ability to infest Terran structures only wouldn't be a problem. About infesting Protoss I guess I'd stay away from it. I gave the Infested Zealot unit to the Hybrid Zerg brood but I'm not completely satisfied with that.

    The UED wasn't included because they don't exist anymore as a group. Once a guy suggested a Brood War version of this mod, with old factions like UED, Confederate squadrons and the Sons of Khoral. That would be very nice, but the mod's popularity isn't going well so I think there's no reason to work on a variation of the theme.

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    #98 Dec 14, 2011 at 20:35 UTC - 0 likes

    @SoulFilcher: Go

    actally the ued is a group but the expiditionary force was destroyed if they came bacl in force even the zerg would lose

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    #99 Dec 15, 2011 at 16:56 UTC - 0 likes

    @rickmary: Go Yeah, what I meant was UED group = expeditionary force. So they're not active in the Koprulu sector.

    I was thinking about splitting the Dominion faction into different squadrons, because each squadron focuses on different tactics. Right now I could add Alpha Squadron and Nova squadron.

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    #100 Dec 15, 2011 at 18:04 UTC - 0 likes

    @SoulFilcher: Go

    Not sure if you'd like this, but I'd move the infesteds to the zerg instead of terrans having it. Just a suggestion...

    Don't remember tribe names but I'd make sure you have these tribes...

    Artanis's Followers, Zeratul's Allies, Selendis's Forces, Urun's Fleet, Tal'Darim, Shakuras Dark Templar, Aiur Remains, Tassadar's Desendents, and Char Dark Templar.

    Artanis has both dark and high templar allies. Zeratul is similar to artanis but has more dark templar stuff in it. Selendis is like Zeratul except she has more high templar stuff. Urun has a more powerful fleet. Tal'Darim have all out darker high templar forces. Shakuras has all out dark templar forces. Aiur has zerg and protoss. Tassadar's desendents have both high and dark templar as well as some terran forces. Char dark templar are the remains of the templar that hid on char back in brood war who have some high but mostly dark templar stuff that has evolved into more anti zerg tech.

    With that said...maybe...just maybe...you'll get some interesting ideas for protoss. I know you have some of these tribes already but I don't think you have tassadar's desendents or char dark templar.

    If I remember correctly, the terran were always boring...maybe that's why I hated them. Their stuff is all generic. I think I would have prefered some interesting abilities. For example, dominion get's high life and damage for bcs while Raynor has lower life bcs, but they also get a warp jump ability. I'd have liked that for them a lot. Zerg were...ok...but they would have been more fun if you had massive cheap swarms of weaklings that you could send millions of waves with and yet feel successful. I'd have also liked something similar to my idea for terrans with protoss.

    So yea...I'd say if you wanted to make it more popular, you could go for more fun stuff. Boring old equipment + a few upgrades doesnt completely cut it. You have to make the factions unique like the races regardless of models. Just reuse models if you have to. Really wish I could play some more, but the reason why nobody plays it is the new updates don't effect the gameplay much. Just a tweak. My trick is waiting for like a month then throwing out a massive update instead of little updates all the time.

    With that said, hope you think about starting this up again.

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    #101 Dec 16, 2011 at 20:48 UTC - 0 likes

    @yukaboy: Go The Protoss tribes are based on current Protoss hierarchy. Artanis is the leader the new commanding group, formed by each tribe's leader (thats why he's called Hierarch). Artanis' tribe is Akilae and its already in, tending to use more High Templar stuff. Zeratul isnt attached to this hierarchy, he's been wandering on his own and other leaders think he should go back to Shakuras. Selendis is also from Akilae, she's just an executor not a tribe leader. Urun is the leader of his tribe and its already in (I have on idea why he's an ADMIRAL lol, they should have given him a Protoss rank). TalDarim are in but they lack stuff to make them unique. "Shakuras" practically means the whole protoss race right now, its not a separate group. Aiur and Char Protoss? I dont know, there are still "true" tribes to be added, like Velari, Venatir and others. AS you said what I need now is difference, not new tribes.

    There's no way I can make factions, broods and tribes feel more apart from each other than the original races. Think about SC1, BW and WoL campaigns, you can't set them apart by the units and tech alone. I'd loke to make them more unique but there aren't enough units and abilities for that. SC wasn't designed to be like other RTS games with factions. I'm waiting for HoTS in order to change the tech trees and have more units/abilities to work with, but even that wont do much for me.

    This mod started as a simple tweaks to the standard tech tree, as an option to mods like SC1 + SC2 and others, I don't think it can become much more without massive additions to the current variety and that I can't do. I'll keep supporting it to the best of my abilities anyway.

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