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SC Expanded: melee mod

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    #943 Apr 20, 2013 at 02:09 UTC - 0 likes

    @FreezingAcidRain: Go The Swarm dependencies are all fucked up, no reason for +3 ultralisk armor or 200/200 viper. I already fixed those for the next update. I'll check what's causing the problems with the Baneling.

    #944 Apr 20, 2013 at 02:53 UTC - 0 likes

    Yeah, maybe you can see now how even though my map was "not bad", just look at all the different things I had to fix. I spent about 8 hours a day for a week just fixing everything to work right and it's still far from finished. Just know that people.

    #945 Apr 20, 2013 at 03:22 UTC - 0 likes

    @yukaboy: Go Yeah, what's really unbelievable is that Blizzard screwed data they didn't even need in the campaign. For some units they kept separate multiplayer and campaign entries, while for others they decided it wasn't worth the trouble and now everything is wrong.

    The Baneling speed upgrade for an example does nothing, and they don't even use those upgrades in the campaign, so why break it?

    I found the special Stop ability used by burrowed Roaches, and the one used by burrowed Banelings, was the source of the chaotic movement. While I managed to fix the version used by the Roach the same solution does not apply to the Baneling and I don't know why.

    #946 Apr 20, 2013 at 04:53 UTC - 0 likes

    they used the bane speed upgrade so banes can roll :o

    but yeah they did change alot

    i used to hate mushrooms...

    #947 Apr 21, 2013 at 12:48 UTC - 0 likes

    @SoulFilcher: Go

    As much as I don't like melee, I'm willing to give this a try to return the favour for your contribution to my map (as well as seeing if I can change my mind about melee).

    There's quite alot of sc expanded games on NA. Is there any in particular you'd recommend for me to try out? Terran's my fav race if that helps :P

    #948 Apr 21, 2013 at 13:18 UTC - 0 likes

    When dominion holoboard of alpha squadron faction die,he don't vanish

    #949 Apr 21, 2013 at 13:50 UTC - 0 likes

    @nolanstar: Go And that forces me to find every little detail out of place. So I need all the reports :-)

    @Trieva: Go Anyone with the new Heart of The Swarm map icon. I suggest trying vs an easy AI mode first, so you can get to know the options. All maps feature the same changes, they're just different terrain for the same game.

    @DEFILERRULEZ: Go Yeah, ever since I published this mod. I can't really change that without some model edits, and death models are too complex to deal with.

    Ohhh and Zarxiel told me some of the sounds don't exsit in the italian version, so you won't listen Zagara's quotes, or the Corsair quotes and possibly others :-(

    #950 Apr 21, 2013 at 14:05 UTC - 0 likes

    the dominion holoboard issue should be fixed by removing the actor event that makes it play the dead animation after its killed/and or making a destroy event after this, and removing the dead footprint in the units movement

    guardian attack is buged, you still have the arrack you made, switch it to the one in hots

    the primal guardian you made too slow, i like how it was fast with low aa in the campaign, but at the same time it died when it was attacked, i would revert that more speed, but 120-140 life,

    and scale down the model to the origonal

    the valkyrie, export the old files and rename them, then import them. make a merc valkyrie named mira's bomber an it can use the new model

    #951 Apr 21, 2013 at 16:28 UTC - 0 likes

    I'm trying to make the map page more interesting and include more information about the gameplay. Please share your ideas. I want to keep it updated so maybe its a good start for new players and also for old players coming back to play it.

    Yay Cinder Fortress got to page 3 of top played today! Took a screenshot and made it my wallpaper. :-)

    @nolanstar: Go Thanks for the suggestion on the Dominion Holoboard. I'll try it later.

    I'll check the Guardian weapons. I made the Guardian a real guardian, a unit that is supposed to fit the Broodlord's role, not the Mutalisk's. I'll compare the model scale and see if it needs to be changed.

    The old Valkyrie will be the new Valkyrie, I won't use that HoTS model for this unit.

    #952 Apr 21, 2013 at 18:31 UTC - 0 likes
    • wraith upgrades seem to double for weapon
    • give tosh a hold fire, so hard to nuke if he gives away his location
    • why does the mothership (super hero version) have full tier 3/3 upgradfes? do you how hard that is to kill when all your units are at 0/0 and that think has 1600 health with 5 amour both amour and shield?
    • goliths need the aa range upgrade! infested, too many voids!
    • primail hives shouln't have an attack. seeing people mass produce them near base....1500health with 1 amour of an attack of 15.
    • zerg devourer seem to double with every armour upgrade
    • arbitors attack seems messed up.

    (UPDATED)

    • something fishy's going on with the upgrades, bc and vikings get tier 4 upgrade, i don't know how or what sets it off. people check "help" after upgrading to test for this.
    • zombies missing attack animation
    • lurker's dont unburrow when abducted by viper when burrowed.
    • queens have 150health rather than normal 175, move 1.5 off creep, do campain damage.
    • firebat double tier attack upgrade
    • infestor says 60damage over 4 seconds and has 150 health. don't have the "campain" parasite
    • Kel-Morian Pirate ship is op; hits all targets at a high rate, air aa useless if the person knows how to use it correctly, shoots on the go, range 8 is the icing on top
    • rebels (still rapid fire splash) + droppod = no more workers
    Last edited Apr 22, 2013 by FreezingAcidRain
    #953 Apr 21, 2013 at 21:20 UTC - 0 likes

    @FreezingAcidRain: Go Wraith weapon upgrades fixed, Devourer and Guardian armor upgrades fixed. Tosh got the Hold Fire ability.

    What Mothership hero are you talking about? The Purifier or Nyon?

    Since Thors lost their upgrade, Goliaths lost their's too. But now I have to check how these 2 stand as options.

    Yeah I guess the Primal Hive will have to lose the attack ability.

    I'll check what's wrong with the Arbiter's attack.

    #954 Apr 21, 2013 at 22:10 UTC - 0 likes

    @SoulFilcher: Go

    you could just make it require creep to attack on

    #955 Apr 21, 2013 at 23:16 UTC - 0 likes

    I haven't played melee for a long time but that was really fun :) . I like how you made use of those upgrades from WoL campaign so there's more variety and how there's specific choices of things. More RTSs should be like this when there are so few races or unit variety. This is what I liked from age of empires or advanced wars.

    To save time, why not have some dialogs before the game starts (or maybe lobby options) to let players choose their faction, techs, and reinforcements? It helps reduce some load on the gameplay during melee cuz I'm the type that likes to spend at least 1 minute deciding what I want for each choice :P

    EDIT: Can we also have some other conveniences like starting off with at least 1 supply depot or barracks? The beginning of the game isn't too different each time so might as well automate or shortcut it.

    EDIT #2: What is your opinion on improving melee games in general? Maybe you could do a custom variation instead of just adding more units and stuff.

    Last edited Apr 21, 2013 by Trieva
    #956 Apr 22, 2013 at 01:14 UTC - 0 likes

    @FreezingAcidRain: Go I guess I found the source(s) of these upgrade issues. I believe they will be solved by the next update, but keep your eyes open anyway.

    The infested civilian actor was one more victim of the editor's gremlins, several actor events were removed and I never touched that actor.

    Probably because I use the old version of the Lurker, I'll see what I can do to solve it.

    @nolanstar: Go Make it require creep for the one "brood" that shouldn't use creep?

    @Trieva: Go I'm glad you liked it. The reasons choices are upgrades and not a dialog at the beginning are 1) current system makes it easier to add the mod to new maps, just replace all dependencies with Sc Expanded and you're good to go. 2) Its part of the strategy to decide what you want based on your oponents' choices, so you can delay yours until you know what you're facing. 3) I'm way better with data than I am with dialogs.

    I'd rather not deal with early game like that. Being a good player in melee includes deciding when and how to build, so I wont change the starting structures.

    I believe "improving" melee games is a very complicated thing. It requires a perfect knowledge of how things work and what is needed to change. Mods like One Goal have only a slight chance to succeed because there's a team of high-skilled players planning it. I mean no offense to Kabel but I doubt his StarBow has what it takes to be a good melee improvement, at least in the part of changing units and tech tree in general, but I like what he did to the resource income progression. I don't feel I'm qualified to try, and I don't think we need yet another attempt to "improve" melee.

    That being said one thing I'd like to try is adding new races, or even replace the original 3 entirely. But this one melee mod here already keeps me busy and I have other projects lying aorund unfinished.

    #957 Apr 22, 2013 at 02:26 UTC - 0 likes

    make the attack require a hive?

    #958 Apr 22, 2013 at 10:16 UTC - 0 likes

    So I tried rigging the Protoss Escape Pod up to the Drop Pod bones, but for some reason the death animation causes crashiness... I'm not sure why so making it may be delayed I'm afraid.

    #959 Apr 23, 2013 at 02:50 UTC - 0 likes
    Quote from SoulFilcher: Go

    @FreezingAcidRain: Go Wraith weapon upgrades fixed, Devourer and Guardian armor upgrades fixed. Tosh got the Hold Fire ability.

    What Mothership hero are you talking about? The Purifier or Nyon?

    Since Thors lost their upgrade, Goliaths lost their's too. But now I have to check how these 2 stand as options.

    Yeah I guess the Primal Hive will have to lose the attack ability.

    I'll check what's wrong with the Arbiter's attack.

    • Purifier and Nyon have the same stats? just that one adds +4 shield and the other one nukes.
    • I don't think anyone used the thor's upgrade in the past too often; its a slower attack than thor's hammer gun. goliath with the range upgrade (9? can't remember) now that is handy. comparing thors to goliaths is like compaing bcs with wraiths. I like goliaths beacuse its a mech aa that terran is lacking in hots (vs. void, general air, all round unit if you don't like macroing with mmm. will it remain a choice with a upgradable research, added to the main(least add 1-2 to terran,zerg,protoss; sc1 expansion that deals with counters and what the present game lacks) or least favorite, under a faction.
    • Repluser field isn't centered and for 100mana (often its at 0 cause its used for training units) lasts for only 2 seconds? mabey it does aoe damage or should last longer, like 30secs?
    • when moving the protoss cannon off pylon raduis its unpowered and can't move. ("faster cybernetic and froge upgrades" is a poor choice of words, and why doen't zerg have this ability listed under a faction? (though unbalance)?
    • the updated post above
    Last edited Apr 23, 2013 by FreezingAcidRain
    #960 Apr 23, 2013 at 03:25 UTC - 0 likes

    @FreezingAcidRain: Go queens, firebats and infestors fixed for the next update. Rebel splash damage removed.

    The Mothership heroes will have to be reworked. Now they should come from a MS Core? I dont know. I have to check their cost and supply efficiency.

    For now the Goliath stays as an option to Thor, but the upgrade has been removed. I have to decide what to do about it.

    Repulser Field is just a lame idea because Toss was in neec of more things, it isnt really needed with Force Field. The faster upgrade is an outdated tooltip, sorry. The upgrades no longer work that way. You mean giving Zerg upgrades that increase life as well? It's in my list.

    #961 Apr 23, 2013 at 03:53 UTC - 0 likes
    Quote from SoulFilcher: Go

    Its part of the strategy to decide what you want based on your oponents' choices, so you can delay yours until you know what you're facing.

    From my first impression the faction's units don't seem to specialise against other races, factions, or units (but I've only tried 1). This is made worse that there naturally (or barely) are any hard counters making every army composition different amounts op or fragile. It doesn't seem worth it to wait when standard melee army compositions have good strengths. At the very least it's not clear what the usefulness of the laser tank is since it can't siege (possibly into a mega laser cannon) :P.

    Quote from SoulFilcher: Go

    I'd rather not deal with early game like that. Being a good player in melee includes deciding when and how to build, so I wont change the starting structures.

    The beginning of the game is mostly keep building miners then build the first building at some point. Maybe scout for cheese. I don't see much strategy there since I'm sure there's an optimal way to gather resources then the first building. I was just saying we could save that boring and not so useful few minutes or so and if races did start off with production buildings, there would be more strats since you could decide to immediately start the game with improving the economy, getting troops, or scouting.

    Quote from SoulFilcher: Go

    I believe "improving" melee games is a very complicated thing. It requires a perfect knowledge of how things work and what is needed to change.

    I agree, although it doesn't hurt to try :P. I don't mind if you're not interested in this but was just wondering and thanks for letting me know. If someone was ambitious enough to modify melee gameplay then I'd be glad to make suggestions :)

    Quote from SoulFilcher: Go

    That being said one thing I'd like to try is adding new races, or even replace the original 3 entirely. But this one melee mod here already keeps me busy and I have other projects lying aorund unfinished.

    That would be interesting seeing a new RTS built from scratch and I'd be glad to help out with ideas and maybe some triggering :) . Just make sure units like tanks have realistic armor plating that greatly resists rifle bullets (cuz I'm thinking of WW2). The terran tanks and battlecruisers seem to be made out of cardboard :P.

    #962 Apr 23, 2013 at 04:55 UTC - 0 likes
    Quote from Trieva: Go

    That would be interesting seeing a new RTS built from scratch and I'd be glad to help out with ideas and maybe some triggering :) . Just make sure units like tanks have realistic armor plating that greatly resists rifle bullets (cuz I'm thinking of WW2). The terran tanks and battlecruisers seem to be made out of cardboard :P.

    That's what's currently making mech unviable!

    Any and all SC2 related things put on hold for now.

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