Quote from Charysmatic: GoYou don't have to be religious to be against this either, it promoted abortions which is considered murder to some people, so why support something that promotes murder?
Wait...
What?
How does stem cell research promote abortion? It's completely unrelated to abortion.
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Quote from RodrigoAlves: GoNow, back to religion. You guys should have in mind that none of you will change ideas of anybody in here. I had countless religious debates before, and they always end up the same. Things won't be different here.
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Quote from Charysmatic: GoI just have a respone for "3)Denial of contraception"
You don't have to be religious to be against that. If you believe nothing special happens when a baby starts breathing (2 minutes before birth to 2 minutes after) then baby is just as human as anyone else, and killing it is then murder.
Do you know what contraception means?
Quote from Charysmatic: GoOkay and "7) Stem cell research"
You don't have to be religious to be against this either, it promoted abortions which is considered murder to some people, so why support something that promotes murder?
Do you know that stem cell research can use zygotes that would be wasted because artificial insemination always creates more zygotes than they need? No stem cell research needs a woman to go through abortion.
All arguments of an ignorant person.
Quote from Mozared: GoHow you draw the causality to religious superstition is beyond me. Do you honestly believe that if religion hadn't existed at all, we wouldn't have had these problems? Or that different problems of the same scope wouldn't have arisen? If the bible hadn't preached any kind of homophobia, do you think the problem would have been non-existant? If the bible hadn't preached any kind of female subjugation, do you think all females would've lived as free equals to men from the dawn of mankind?
The best example you offered is still that 'witch hunt' article from a couple of topics ago. Let me ask you again; do you honestly think that if religion had never existed, those two folks would have never murdered anybody and be completely fine and upstanding individuals? Yes, religion has a ROLE in all of these instances, but that doesn't make it the cause. PEOPLE are the cause. Like I said multiple times, religion is what you make of it. If I choose to believe in a god and proceed to murder everyone who doesn't believe in my personal god, that makes me a moron, not my religion stupid. If this were untrue, we could assume that religion, as the 'cause' of these evils, makes anybody able to commit them. Which would mean that any upstanding citizen, upon convertion to Christianity, would suddenly become more likely to commit murder than before.
The whole ordeal just doesn't make sense to begin with. The number of Christians in the world has only been on the rise since the 1500's, yet violence has gone down, and 'holy wars' have lessened to nearly the point of extinction. If religion is what causes men to murder, how do you explain this? I do so through stating that our morals as a whole have shifted, not our belief in God.
The only correlation I really see is that 'stupid' people (or rather, 'people capable of murder') are more easily drawn to radical causes because of their state of mind. Or in a nutshell; people who are stupid (or rather 'capable of murder') to begin with are also the ones more prone to believe in lies, making religion not a cause of their violence, but rather a hint to their state of mind.
Only a politician could write half a page of text and not address a single point.
Ooh goody, the debate has shifted to contraception/abortion/stem cell research. Things have gotten interesting once again!
Contraception (the prevention of conception) does not include abortion (the murder of the unborn child.) This is because abortions necessarily take place after conception has already occurred.
I don't think stem cell research directly supports abortion. It certainly cheapens unborn life and thus paves the way for abortion, but this effect is indirect. For the person who considers a human being to be a person post-conception, it matters little where that person is or how it was created. It is still a person deserving dignity and life, therefore any violent acts against it are unjust.
The most fundamental issue in the abortion debate is whether human beings are persons post-conception. Nothing else really matters, because if a pro-abortion person were forced to acknowledge that they were intentionally killing human persons, they would have to acknowledge that they were committing the evil act of murder. The popularity of the movement would plummet to only a few stubborn/crazy activists.
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I've been adressing them with every single post. Just in one fell swoop. I even pointed two out specifically in my first bit of text.
Discussion's been like this:
1) You state religion is the cause of evils.
2) I get your point and state that people are the cause of evils, not religion, and add examples to illustrate.
3) You give me examples on people comitting evils that in some way connect to religion.
4) I state again people are the cause of evils, not religion, and say that all your examples oblige to that rule. I ask you how you'd explain (in a nutshell) killing WITHOUT religion being involved.
5) You throw more examples.
6) I repeat my point, along with asking an explanation on more of those examples like those in post four.
7) You say I'm not doing anything with your examples.
8 ) I tell you that I've answered them because they all oblige to the in post two named rule; that PEOPLE are to blame for evils, not religions.
9) You say I'm not doing anything with your examples.
At this point I'm not sure what you want me to say anymore. How many more times to I have to point out that every single thing you've linked harkens back to the idea that they are cases of people misusing religion in order to commit evils? If there's anyone not adressing a point, it's you - I've asked you the same question in different forms multiple times now, yet you've never answered.
@BasharTeg: Go I understand your point. But think about it for a second, contraception is just an easier way, compared to the need to take your penis off your girlfriend's vagina before ejaculation, so as to avoid conception. So, do you cheapen unborn life every time you do that? Or when you masturbate? How come that a condom is any different? If you think humans are made just after conception you should force all zygotes to be implanted in a woman so they can all be born, or you can just be against artificial insemination, because this technique causes millions of unnecessary deaths.
About stem cell research: If those millions zygotes will be wasted anyway, what do you think is better? 1- Just waste them. 2- Give them a proper funeral or 3-Donate them to stem cell research laboratories so they can be useful.
These arguments I can totally understand, but when someone tells me he's against contraception and stem cell research because they murder babies, well then I have to explain some details about this little world we live in.
Religious people has all the right to believe whatever they want. But, I don't agree with imposing their beliefs by law.
If I was a woman, I'd never abort my own child because even if I was raped and don't love the child, life is too complex for me to say this child will have a shitty life. Maybe it will become a brilliant human being. I would never abort a baby, but WHY SHOULD I STOP PEOPLE FROM DOING IT?
God, I hate censorship so much. If people want to abort, let them abort. If people want to kill themselves, let them kill themselves. If people want to be homo, let them be Bounty. If people want to believe in the giant spaguetti, let them believe without judging that they are wrong.
I still can't understand why would people prevent others from doing something that doesn't concern them. If God has a problem with it, then let himself stop it.
I'm Christian and I am not a homophobe, i am however homosexualmisiaic Which means I have a hatred for gays, lol, really I dont even hate gays, I hate men that act like women and Women that act like men... both sicken me, I personally dont care if faggots get married or not, its their choice, but people need to realize that a Government wedding, and a religious wedding, are two different things, and Churches should be allowed to say NO, make them fags get married in the court house... a wedding recognized by the state but not god.
As for Abortions and Stem cell, Abortions NO, stemcell, if the baby is born dead, Then its the mothers and fathers decision. after a woman is past the halfway mark 4 1/2 months then it should be illegal for abortions. I do think that Safe sex, and Day after pills are FINE, and there is nothing wrong with wrapping your jimmy, though mine is more like an anaconda :D.
im sorry, but I dont see how its religion that's against this. Religion isnt the reason your mommy didnt love you Eiviyn :D just kidding about that though, but seriously, you cant blame Religion for everything, Religion is a set of beliefs nothing more, Weather you like it or not YOU ARE RELIGIOUS!!! Atheist are religious Not in the Theism sense, but in the sense of you believe that there is no god.
Definition - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
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I am against pre-marital sex, "pulling out," masturbation, condom usage, artificial insemination, and stem cell research. It's a "seamless garment," as the saying goes. So yes, each of these actions cheapens unborn life in its own way.
The millions of zygotes in storage right now presents a big problem for moralists. I'm not sure what the answer is for them, especially since sinful acts have already been committed to put them in that position. They are still alive so it would not be acceptable to kill them and give them a funeral, and both of the other two options are unsuitable. I haven't done enough research into the topic to come up with a good opinion about it, but I do know it's a contentious issue being debated right now within Catholic circles.
I'm not sure what you mean by your last comment. Do you mean that babies outside the womb are murdered every day? This I know is true, and quite tragic. Obviously I oppose these kinds of acts too.
Rodrigo, let me ask you: If you knew someone was about to commit murder, would you not feel compelled to try to stop them, call the police, or warn the victim? For those who believe the unborn are human persons, that's exactly what abortion is. It isn't about censorship or denying rights or anything like that - it's about defending a life unable to defend itself.
Quote from Taintedwisp: GoReligion isnt the reason your mommy didnt love you Eiviyn :D just kidding about that though, but seriously, you cant blame Religion for everything, Religion is a set of beliefs nothing more, Weather you like it or not YOU ARE RELIGIOUS!!! Atheist are religious Not in the Theism sense, but in the sense of you believe that there is no god.
Perhaps if you know my values better than I do, you'd be better off arguing with a mirror?
I don't mind if people kill real people everyday.... why should I care about unborn ppl..... O.o
But then you say "well the government doesnt condone that kinda murder." Well what do you think the death punishment is.... and im completely comfortable with that.
Not to mention I'd have to fight for food harder..... ie more population = more expensive food......
why the hell make people have kids who dont want them jesus..... and adoption is just wrong if your too lazy to raise someone yourself.
Im more concerned with how people are raised then the whole caring about dead people thing.
Lets not even go to the evolutionary impact of forcing reproduction on people.
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@BasharTeg: Go You didn't understand my last comment because it wasn't for you. It was for those ready to answer with opinions based on ignorance. Some may include all religious people in that class, but I think different. As you just said, many want to discuss rationally important decisions like abortion and stem cell research. Of course religon is a part of the discussion, but sometimes there are stronger pressures.
Here in Brazil abort is always an important subject, because it is illegal, except in cases of rape, serious risk to the mother or serious deformities/diseases going on with the baby. But there are severel illegal abortion clinics and many poor women make abortions themselves using the most dreadful techniques for it (from falling down the stairs to inserting rusty metal bars into themselves and so on), so many women die trying to make an abortion. This is a serious health issue and many people think abortion should be legal, so it would be made safely in hospitals (it would still have to meet some conditions, like psychological exams). But religious people say it should stay illegal and those mothers should be convinced to stop trying it, which I think is totally impossible.
I see. Well, when people say "abortion is murder," that doesn't necessarily mean they're being ignorant. The argument stems from the idea that personhood exists from conception. Murder is when one human person maliciously ends the life of another, so when you consider an unborn child a person, considering abortion to be murder is only a short logical step from there. Granted, some may not be able to express the connection with so much clarity.
In response to the rest of your post, I must stand firm in my opinion. While it is tragic for women to injure themselves as you describe, it does not justify ending another human life. The fact that women might resort to these measures makes no commentary on whether the unborn child is a human person, and therefore bears no significance in deciding the fundamental issue.
It is impossible to control every action of individuals within a population, whether that's self-induced abortions or other criminal acts like shoplifting or carjacking. There will always be people who are absolutely convinced that they want to do something and nothing in the world can or should stop them. However, this does not mean we should give in to despair and simply make these things legal. I think education might be the best tool society has for stopping undesirable behavior... as well as positive environmental reinforcement from parents, famous persons, teachers, and entertainment media.
The basic premise here is that a righteous course of action is always superior to an unrighteous one, even if the unrighteous course of action is easier or seems to produce better results. It is anti-Machiavellian in that it states "the end does not necessarily justify the means."
Quote from BasharTeg: GoRodrigo, let me ask you: If you knew someone was about to commit murder, would you not feel compelled to try to stop them, call the police, or warn the victim? For those who believe the unborn are human persons, that's exactly what abortion is. It isn't about censorship or denying rights or anything like that - it's about defending a life unable to defend itself.
Yes, I would defend the person if I am there in the scene as I have, with words, convinced friends that suicide is not what they really wanted. But, I wouldn't make a law against it and put people in jail for not obeying the law. It's the 'foot in the door' phenomenon. More you censor, more censorship will come. Now american cops can already strip-search people. What's next? Touching your penis every time you travel? Censorship is going so crazy that even good old cartoons like Popeye can't be mainstreamed anymore due to its violence. I remember times where you could have a horse in the city or buy pure raw healthy milk without being charged. Maybe in the future we will tell our kids how we used to have a free encyclopedia, ride bikes without helmet, and how we could climb trees without being fined by a cop.
everyone is religious weather you like it or not, Religion, like noted is a set of beliefs, you dont have to believe in god to believe. if you did, then your life what suck at every turn.
And the reason why Christians, Muslims, Jews, get infuriated when you talk about their god is because they love him, and they learn to love him, because your going to love the Person, or entity that you turn to in the times of Crises its as simple as that.
You know why there are no more Violence in TV?
The English government when TV first came out was researching methods to make people do what ever they wanted without caring, so how do they do this? they make sure Cartoons are Non-Violent but imaginative, they teach kids to use their imaginations, that they can do whatever they want if they can imagine it.
But there stood 2 things in their way 1. Religion 2. Cartoons that were violent.
Religion taught morals, about working hard and caring for your fellow man, honestly do you give a flying fuck about the bum down the street? because 99.9% of the world doesn't,
and Violent Cartoons, They taught imagination, but they also showed that people can get hurt, and be in a lot of pain, and they showed this pain, how many times did you see elmer fudd or Leg horn Foghorn(on of the best ever) have bandages or stitches or just look hurt? every episode. also there are a few more reasons but enough are stated for the point
So with those two things, They couldnt do jack shit, a few years later Hitler gathered scientist from all over the world just a few years before he waged war He learned of England's works and he began doing the same type of thing, and he learned that if he Controlled Religion(mostly through censorship) and Violent cartoons then he could do anything he wanted to. So he did, do you really think an entire country would just hate jews, Disabled, Autistic, or any group and just mass murder, slavery maybe but mass murder, starve, work to death? no...
Well then the war ended, but where did those scientist go? the answer? Every country that was on the winning side, So england, usa, France, russian, etc(Smaller outlaying countries) So now we have scientist that are telling us that we can have an abiding soldier, and how to do it, the problem? the same as always Cartoons and Religion, Just think of how kids today are, they are Peace childs that dont care about anything in the world they believe they can do anything, and how did they get rid of the two blockades?
Cartoons - Waned them down to be loving happy go time experiences
Religion - By discrediting it with lies backed up with facts. Exploiting weak points such as Fanatics, lets be honest which one is the news going to report?, Fanatic Christians kill 4 people, or Regular people kill 4 people? that hook sales Everytime.
So the real question is, where do we as humanity go from here.
Quote from Taintedwisp: Goeveryone is religious weather you like it or not, Religion, like noted is a set of beliefs, you dont have to believe in god to believe. if you did, then your life what suck at every turn.
Quote from Eiviyn: GoPerhaps if you know my values better than I do, you'd be better off arguing with a mirror?
Quote from Taintedwisp: GoAnd the reason why Christians, Muslims, Jews, get infuriated when you talk about their god is because they love him, and they learn to love him, because your going to love the Person, or entity that you turn to in the times of Crises its as simple as that.
Truth hurts.
Quote from Taintedwisp: GoSome garbage about Hitler censoring religion
Kinda curious who taught you history. Conservapedia?
Charysmatic Regular Shmoe@Eiviyn: Go
I just have a respone for "3)Denial of contraception"
You don't have to be religious to be against that. If you believe nothing special happens when a baby starts breathing (2 minutes before birth to 2 minutes after) then baby is just as human as anyone else, and killing it is then murder.
Edit: IM SORRY I COMPLETELY BLANKED AND WAS THINKING THIS MEANT ABORTION