SC2Mapster Forums

#1

MTops Premium

Join date: 23 Apr 2005

Posts: 98

Last login: 16 Jul 2011

on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:22:52

My research into the SC2 AI includes the strategies players are using to defeat computer controlled opponents.

So I would like to invite all of you to try and beat the Very Hard AI which is currently available in the beta on an official Blizzard map 1vs1. I'm not asking you to try and beat an Insane AI because the only difference between Very Hard and Insane is that the latter is cheating (40% more resources gained). Props to you if you can beat an Insane, but I'm planning on making an AI that plays fair.

So please, send me your replays of your 1vs1 matches against the Very Hard or Insane AI, so I can analyze the strategies used. Please mail to maarten AT 3tg.nl

#2

fernsauce Author

Join date: 28 Jun 2010

Posts: 28
Maps: 1

Last login: 06 Jun 2011

24 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:47:08)

Eh, I played a 2v2 with a friend against 2 insane AIs.

Was not fun. At all. The AI's were far too stupid to pose a challenge, but the fact that they got an insane amount of resources meant that the game essentially hit a stalemate very fast - they would constantly send suicidal waves against us, but due to absolutely horrid microing it never worked. We got bored and left. :\

#3

MTops Premium

Join date: 23 Apr 2005

Posts: 98

Last login: 16 Jul 2011

6 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:53:14)

Then please help me to create a fun AI and send me a replay. ;)

#4

progammer Moderator

Name: progammer

Code: 432

Region: NA

Join date: 22 Apr 2010

Posts: 2,206
Maps: 10
Assets: 6

Last login: 04 Feb 2012

2 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:55:26)

@MTops: Go

The most common strategy you will find out is to turtle up, wait for their first wave to hit (typical MM, gateway unit, roach ...) beat it with little or no causality (due to horrible micro) and then immediately push back to their main ->gg

With insane, it is to cheese it early (6->9 pool, cannon, proxy bunker ) before their cheating economy kicks in and beat you with waves after waves of unit

<Retired>
Bejeweled TD
Bomberling Arena
The Amazing Probe
ChessCraft
Library:
Blizz Dota Hero Selection(UI)
StarMovie (play video in map)
Planet View

All Maps

All Assets

#5

Pkol Author

Join date: 21 Apr 2010

Posts: 14
Maps: 1

Last login: 18 Sep 2011

23 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:18:37)

@progammer: Go

I VR rushed a Zerg Very hard opponent on Lost Temple, just walled/cannoned my ramp with 3-4 cannons and spammed void rays. Zerg didn't tech past roaches so it was an easy win.

lolwut? on irc pkol.pkol US Server

#6

MTops Premium

Join date: 23 Apr 2005

Posts: 98

Last login: 16 Jul 2011

46 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:04:48)

I appreciate your replies, but a two sentence report about your strategy isn't nearly as helpful as a replay of the match would be. I also want to study WHY that VR rush was successful in that game. I want to actually SEE your awesome micro winning the first battle without casualties.

#7

Ultraling Author

Join date: 26 May 2010

Posts: 60
Maps: 3

Last login: 13 Aug 2011

8 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:13:12)

Make an AI that can fight off cheese strats and you got a deal. Not even the Insane AI can survive.
I'd post replays if you even wanted to see replays of cheese lol. But B.net needs to come back online first.

Last edited on 13 Jul 2010 by Ultraling

En Taro Adun.

#8

MTops Premium

Join date: 23 Apr 2005

Posts: 98

Last login: 16 Jul 2011

17 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:30:59)

@Ultraling: Go

If I don't have replays of cheese strats, how can I build an AI that can survive against them?

I'm not an awesome SC2 player. I haven't played 100+ battles yet. I don't know most of the acronyms people use to describe common strats. Let alone know the complete list of strats commonly used.

Therefor I would like to ask you to pretend I don't know anything about SC2 strategies. Play against the AI, and if you win, send me the replay please. If the strat you used (cheesy or not) has a commonly used name in the community, mention that as well.

#9

Mozared Moderator

Name: Mozared

Code: 266

Region: EU

Join date: 06 Jun 2010

Posts: 2,495
Maps: 13

Last login: 05 Feb 2012

25 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:56:56)

I'll look into this for you soon. I beat 'hard' regularly without a lot of troubles, nowadays, not sure if very hard is that much of a step up.

Edit: As for strat names;

Proxy-buildingname means you build a 'building' in the proximity of your opponents base. Often this means you build it early in the game and rush with it.
'unitname-Rush' behind something means it's generally done within the first five minutes of the game.
In similar fashion, we often combine a number with a specific building to point at an opener. "4gate" for Protoss means you go for four gateways as soon as possible and then attack. You see this less often among other races ("2-rax" for double barracks for Terran is less common, for example, as it says less because you have the addons deciding what actual units you make).
Mass-unitname just means you go all out on the mentioned unit and make nothing else. This is often used in theoratical situations though, as massing any one type of units usually makes you lose. We sometimes say stuff like "the only way to beat an army that large would be if he had gone mass anti-air from the start".
In some (rare) cases, we use the initials of a unit to point to a strategy. MMM, or even MMMM stands for Mass-Marine-Marauder(-Medivac), for example

That's all that comes to mind right now. Famous strategies for Terran are MMMM, which happens a shitload in any game that involves Terran, and "Mech", which basically means the Terran player goes for everything except MMMM. For Zerg, a "Zergling rush" (also sometimes known as the 6-pool, because you build your spawning pool when you have 6 drones, which means right as you start the game), is a well known one. For protoss, 2gate, 4gate and 6gate are all pretty standard. Cannon rush is also a rather annoying cheese, and it basically means that you sneak in a pylon near the enemy's mineral line (but just outside of his sight range) and then slowly tower your way to him. It's extremely easy to beat if scouted, but extremely hard to beat if not. Strategies with that trait are generally called 'cheese', as they're often a really lazy and lame way to win a match.

Hope that helps.

Last edited on 13 Jul 2010 by Mozared

#10

Ultraling Author

Join date: 26 May 2010

Posts: 60
Maps: 3

Last login: 13 Aug 2011

6 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:03:51)

Quote from MTops: Go
@Ultraling: Go

If I don't have replays of cheese strats, how can I build an AI that can survive against them?

I'm not an awesome SC2 player. I haven't played 100+ battles yet. I don't know most of the acronyms people use to describe common strats. Let alone know the complete list of strats commonly used.

Therefor I would like to ask you to pretend I don't know anything about SC2 strategies. Play against the AI, and if you win, send me the replay please. If the strat you used (cheesy or not) has a commonly used name in the community, mention that as well.

Read you loud and clear. Sure thing, I'll do that for you.
Still waiting on B.net.

Edit:

Quote:
The most common strategy you will find out is to turtle up, wait for their first wave to hit (typical MM, gateway unit, roach ...) beat it with little or no causality (due to horrible micro) and then immediately push back to their main ->gg

I was just reading through these posts again and saw this. Little to no casualty? How exactly is this even possible? The AI is retarded about retreating its units for no reason but not to the effect that their army never fires a single shot.

Last edited on 13 Jul 2010 by Ultraling

#12

jarltheafro Regular Shmoe

Join date: 18 Sep 2009

Posts: 52

Last login: 24 Sep 2010

2 hours later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:21:05)

@Ultraling: Go

if you micro well enough you can retreat weakened unitsbefore they die, this requires some precise timing and is also impossible when focus fired upon.

#13

Ultraling Author

Join date: 26 May 2010

Posts: 60
Maps: 3

Last login: 13 Aug 2011

2 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:24:02)

Quote from jarltheafro: Go
@Ultraling: Go

if you micro well enough you can retreat weakened unitsbefore they die, this requires some precise timing and is also impossible when focus fired upon.

That falls under a casualty. Anybody can do that. What about no casualty?

#14

MTops Premium

Join date: 23 Apr 2005

Posts: 98

Last login: 16 Jul 2011

56 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:20:52)

Quote from Mozared: Go
I'll look into this for you soon. I beat 'hard' regularly without a lot of troubles, nowadays, not sure if very hard is that much of a step up.

Yes, I have studied the Blizz AI in a few matches and I can tell you, there is a HUGE difference. :)

#15

Dreathean Regular Shmoe

Join date: 29 May 2010

Posts: 63

Last login: 14 Nov 2010

43 minutes later (on Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:04:28)

Mmm I'm interested in seeing some replays against Insane AI as well, excluding the early rushes and such. =P

#16

YiffMaster Author

Join date: 04 Jun 2010

Posts: 92
Maps: 1

Last login: 11 Feb 2011

9 hours later (on Wed, 14 Jul 2010 06:02:19)

I saved a replay I played last night. I'm not able to open this file currently, but I've just switched to a mac environment and can't log onto bnet due to a bug, so idk if it's a problem with the replay or with me.

Anyway, this is a simple zergling rush against the terran insane ai. I played a number of these, so I don't know which one this is. Nevertheless, there's not that much creativity in a 10 supply rush, so I'll point out a couple of weaknesses in the comp ai that i've noticed:

•It's good that the scvs try to defend against attackers, but they're only attacking when I attack scvs by minerals. When builder scvs are attacked, they don't attack. They can even be lured out in some cases by attacking a building. edit: probably better that if the builder is attacked it flees rather than letting me lure scvs out.
•The marines don't micro at all nor focus the weakest unit.
•If any scvs aided the marines, my lings would die, but the scvs ignore the lings when I"m not attacking scvs.
•No unit micro nor scv repairing at all.

•Most importantly, the terran didn't block the ramps with supply depots and barracks the way every.single.terran.play.ever(!) does.

Last edited on 14 Jul 2010 by YiffMaster

Name	Size	MD5
zergrush_terran_insane.SC2Replay	6.5 KiB	5ff8ed6460ff...

#17

Omnimmotus Regular Shmoe

Join date: 04 Jun 2010

Posts: 31

Last login: 19 Dec 2011

3 hours later (on Wed, 14 Jul 2010 09:57:51)

Huh. I didn't know that the insane AI just cheats. Seems like a shame.

Anyway, I've never been really into competitive play before but I'm just breaking into it. When not up to playing against a human opponent, I enjoy the more relaxing experience of fighting a Very Hard AI. (It's okay at the basic mechanics but lacks any of the finesse that really makes the difference.)

I play Protoss. I'll see if I can whip up a good replay for you, as the more input the better. It amuses me when I look at the APM in my replays... my APM is doesn't even begin to compare to the AI, but it really doesn't matter in the end. A good portion of its APM is probably doing things like moving probes back and forth just out of range....

Oh, the AI might do better if it had a better understanding of conserving resources and units. If you let them hit your defenses, as mentioned above, you can usually push back very effectively. I'd love to see them hit you from the sides and in the back, where they won't waste all their production.

#18

Luxor0 Author

Join date: 12 Jan 2007

Posts: 13
Maps: 2

Last login: 31 Jul 2011

24 minutes later (on Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:22:16)

This is a game I did against the insane AI as Terran with the AI being Zerg. Think I got a bit lucky that the AI decided to spend time attacking the rocks instead of running into my base.

The Insane AI cheating just seems like blizzard just gave up on making a really Insane AI which would have been more fun. But they have more important stuff to deal with. But I do enjoy watching the Insane AI spiking at 6000+ APM at some times ^^

Name	Size	MD5
Insane_AI_-_Terran_v._Zerg_1.SC2Replay	20.7 KiB	3e8bd7bdee9b...

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

#19

MTops Premium

Join date: 23 Apr 2005

Posts: 98

Last login: 16 Jul 2011

45 minutes later (on Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:07:49)

Thanks for the replays, Yiff and Luxor, I will study them as soon as my character is back when I try to login :P

#20

Omnimmotus Regular Shmoe

Join date: 04 Jun 2010

Posts: 31

Last login: 19 Dec 2011

68 minutes later (on Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:16:14)

This isn't the Insane AI, just the Very Hard AI. Protoss on Protoss, it didn't play a very good initial game so I rolled over it. 10 minutes, neither of us had expanded, haha. Not the most exciting replay, but it demonstrates some clear mistakes on the part of the AI.

Name	Size	MD5
Protoss_vs_Protoss_Quick.SC2Replay	15.6 KiB	4a3b145fd6ee...

#21

MTops Premium

Join date: 23 Apr 2005

Posts: 98

Last login: 16 Jul 2011

2 hours later (on Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:13:03)

@Omnimmotus: Go

I checked your replay and I can conclude two things. The AI went for a quick Immortal build. Which is not effective against a mass Zealot army, which you had. If it had actually used the information his scouting drones gave him, he could have prevented that mistake.

The same build crushed my zergling/roach/spine crawler defense when I was up against a VH Protoss. So it's not that the strategy is bad, it was just a bad choice against your build.

Another major mistake was failure to retreat. His first attack was obliterated at your ramp, partially because you had cannons, and you had high ground/ramp advantage. If the AI was "smart" he could have retreated with at least half of his force when he noticed he wasn't going to win that fight. The huge loss and your immediate response was enough to finish him.

As for the other two replays. I'm having trouble watching them. They were made with patch 16 and now I have 17 installed. The game offers me to relaunch the game to watch the replay but when I agree, I see the loading bar, and then a nice black screen with a mouse cursor.

SC2Mapster.com

General > General Chat

Can you beat the Very Hard AI 1vs1? Show me!