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FuzzYD Author

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#1 Feb 01, 2012 at 08:25 UTC - 0 likes

Is visual polish overrated? Or do most mappers prefer to get the basic groundwork up before they start with visual polish?

By visual polish I refer to the general look and feel of customised UI's
I refer specifically to dialog based custom UI's

I ask because I've seen a lot of map videos and maps in general that don't make use of the wide range of available dialog texture assets. Most of which just use the default buttons, dialog borders which IMO are kinda dull.

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#2 Feb 01, 2012 at 09:14 UTC - 0 likes

I think it is overrated. Sotis shop UI for example looked like shit and messy as hell (atleas last time I tried it)

Last edited Feb 01, 2012 by zenx1

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#3 Feb 01, 2012 at 09:27 UTC - 0 likes

@FuzzYD: Go

I would have to say, as a user of many UIs for many games, it is overrated to me. All I care about first and foremost, does it function properly. Imagine mappers going at it go for functionality first, probably why demo videos have weaker UIs. Assuming we talking all functional UIs though, I definitely prefer a polished one that blends well with the game/map itself over say, a black and gray one.... (Unless the game is highly silvery/metallic of course) It is a problem however when a UI has so much polish that you can't even tell what the hell you are doing. I know you have seen them before, so much going on you aren't sure what the hell the buttons do or where the minimize/close buttons are, lol.

This of course comes from a guy who thoroughly enjoyed some text only games, games that used asci colors and characters to create scenery and monsters and some images, lol. I always aim for playability/functionality first as a rule, so I am probably in the minority nowadays :) Back to messing w/ algorithms for me!

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#4 Feb 01, 2012 at 09:33 UTC - 0 likes

I'd say the best visuals are the simple, yet good looking visuals.

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#5 Feb 01, 2012 at 10:21 UTC - 0 likes

I think visual polish should be left till last. I always think minimalistic is better.

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#6 Feb 02, 2012 at 06:13 UTC - 0 likes

I will agree with the what everyone is saying so far. I use a lot of dialogs in my map; they are all pretty basic. All of the information that I need to pass on to the player is easy to understand, the dialogs are well organized and are easy to access and use.

Not saying that I dont plan to eventually make some really great looking dialogs; but as long as they have functionality, I can work on the rest of my map and upgrade the dialog graphics once I have a finished project.

Look through the list of maps that lost momentum, were quit halfway through, or will simply never be finished. I see a lot of great artwork in games that have no playability yet. I couldn't imagine spending all that time to make an amazing dialog system, and then crap out on the map for whatever reason.

Art should always be saved for last; just make sure you are organized.

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FuzzYD Author

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#7 Feb 02, 2012 at 07:06 UTC - 0 likes

Thanks for the feedback everyone. This has shed some light on my dilemma. I'll keep in mind to focus on functionality first. Will worry about the art later :)

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#8 Feb 02, 2012 at 08:56 UTC - 0 likes

I suppose it varies from person to person. Dialogs are time consuming as hell, but so is bug-fixing and looking for answers to problems you ran into.

When I create dialog I need to see it as it will be in final form. Will it fit with the rest of the elements? Won't it stand out? How does it feel/influence gameplay? Because of that every time I'm about to make a new dialog I step away from monitor, take pencil and a piece of paper and draw its layout. After I know how I want it to look like I search for blizzards pieces to make it work.

Some may say that it's a waste of time to do "art" before you finish all of in-game functions because eventually you might add/change something making your previous designs obsolete. But I believe that the more you do something the better you become with it. You gained a bit of experience and understanding of your dialogs, so next dialogs will probably be better and easier to make. And besides, knowing that most mappers have a baggage of unfinished maps which is hundreds hours of work which will never see light of the day, lost time on rearranging art is defiantly not an excuse not to do it.

But hey, I got zero drawing skills, so I use blizz assets for dialogs. If we're talking about self-made art it might be different. Though even when testing stuff all by yourself wouldn't you want to look at prettier custom dialogs instead of those boring default textures? Show yourself a little love.

Also, when you do too much of one thing it becomes extremely boring, so you switch to another. Why not do dialogs when you have Data/Trigger/Terrain burnout?

And another point. You might not be satisfied with with what you come up dialog-wise first time. If you left dialogs for the last moment you might get frustrated with not achieving general feeling you strive for. But if you applied style right away you can chill and do some triggerwork and come back to rework dialogs later :D

P.S. You may also get new ideas for features when designing dialog looks/styles. So really, there is nothing wrong in making things look pretty right off the bat. If you feel like it then relax and do it. After all mapmaking is about doing what you enjoy, and personally I find polishing dialogs very enjoyable.

(I feel like I butchered English right there)

Last edited Feb 02, 2012 by DuckyTheDuck

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#9 Feb 02, 2012 at 09:39 UTC - 0 likes

Underrated among most mappers and community. You see the maps on the top 3 pages of the popularity list(s)? Many of them could definitely use some visual styling to make them a little more unique. They probably don't want to bother with the artistic learning curve so just slap on some basic playable terrain and triggers and you got yourself a playable game that's "acceptable" to the sc2 custom community. There are many eager new mappers that just want to make a playable map from their idea. Triggering and data learning curves are already pretty daunting so I could see why visuals are often times put on hold indefinitely.

But I would say visuals are overrated among the more dedicated mappers with higher standards (like a few sc2mapster mappers). Seeing visual criticisms to maps that're in early stages just doesn't seem like the right constructive criticism. I often see a lot of these comments in project workplaces.

I like visuals but I don't want to bother with visuals until I get the gameplay working. I would say it's sufficient to even release a map for testing without much visuals. Unless it's a type of map where visuals are really important for gameplay, I don't see why visuals should be put on such high priority so early in the map.

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#10 Feb 02, 2012 at 10:02 UTC - 0 likes

Quote from tordecybombo: Go
But I would say visuals are overrated among the more dedicated mappers with higher standards (like a few sc2mapster mappers).

I could be one of those :)

I dont know if I overrate visuals, but I think good visuals are just as important as good gameplay. I hate staring at plain Agria Dirt with no doodads, and default terran dialog buttons everywhere.

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#11 Feb 02, 2012 at 10:11 UTC - 0 likes

I think I overrate visuals, but doing visuals is kind of relaxing for me so its fine. No one is paying me or has any expectations for my work, so I won't let anyone down by making nice visuals of any kind even if its not really necessary and there are more important things to do. I'm pretty disappointed each time I play Custom Maps, because over half of the even really successful ones has no proper design for their interface, their terrain and their overall art choices. On the other hand, most people don't really care so its fine I guess.

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#12 Feb 02, 2012 at 10:25 UTC - 0 likes

@DuckyTheDuck: Go

You make very good points. I better wait for more more feedback before I jump to any conclusions... lol

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#13 Feb 02, 2012 at 12:09 UTC - 0 likes

I only like to do the polishing part, when I am done with the basic stuff.
In case of dialogs I plan what I want dialog for and what type of items want I to use. Than I put all the items in the dialog at once and doesnt bother about anything just make it work. Than when I start testing how it works, than I change the dialog item images, position, size and so on. At this stage I make changes which would make my polishing efforts useless. Than I usually further polish when I play the map often.
I never use the default buttons in my releases as they suck.

Its good to know all the possibilities you can do with dialogs and how others may use them as there are some tricks.
You should check Ducky's Bomberbot map and my Final Frontier map. (Bomberbot is more polished but I use more dialogs combined with custom UI)

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#14 Feb 02, 2012 at 13:03 UTC - 0 likes

The best thing about any kind of information visualization is functionality. UI must look like there is no interface, just pure information. Like there is no visual forms between information consumer and the information. And, the simpliest possible way to visualize information usually works great. All these borders, windows, dialogs and forms are usually redundant as dog's 5th paw. No matter, what skin is used to make em' look prettier. If a design element can be removed without affecting information it visualizes, it's useful to remove it. The pieces of information themselves - numbers and words - can create a form of visualization without involvement of additional lines and squares. So, I like to use transparent dialogs :)

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#15 Feb 02, 2012 at 13:24 UTC - 0 likes

I am kind of undecided here. Having a pretty UI that doesn't work is absolutely stupid of course, but it doesn't take that long to get it to work. You set up the triggers to create all the items, and then set up the triggers that respond to clicks. Yea, there's a high chance there'll be bugs, but it works, and those bugs will only be found through thorough testing, so you've got time to work on something else.

Also, comparing to the top popularity maps makes pretty much no sense to me... I think everyone here on sc2mapster, whether objectively or not, agrees that they are nowhere near the word "polished" and a lot will even say they are simply bad (I'm not saying they're not fun). I'd maybe make an exception for monobattles, because Klishu did lot more work than he really had to. The loading screen could be better and he does use default dialogs, but they don't look bad.

When working on RuneCraft I didn't really have to make a decision, simply because I wasn't the trigger guy, lol. I made the art for the dialogs, and then put it into them. Maybe apart from picking which image you want, it doesn't look like changing images is a lot of work.

I think using the default dialogs isn't bad, but using all the other images blizzard has provided us with looks a LOT better. But I think in a custom game, visuals really are important. One of the two main reasons I didn't like that Frontline map or whatever it was called was because it was a hero map with practically non-existant visual effect. And the effects I did notice were piss annoying. That was back when it was in beta, I don't know how it's doing now. The map wasn't badly made (well, it was very repetetive. And I made a hero siege/defense myself so generally that isn't a problem for me). In my first map, I was terrible with actors, but I made an effort to at least make the spells visible. Nowadays for custom spells i use multiple models and entire dummy effect chains just to make it look how I want to, and I find doing that to be a lot of fun.

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#16 Feb 03, 2012 at 04:28 UTC - 0 likes

The problem with UI is that no one has really created a good tutorial yet; and people are lazy when it comes to learning new things.

The UI in Tofu is basically pixel art, the same art that kids have no problem doing for Minecraft, just on a larger scale. Every single piece of art (except for ability/item buttons), was done pixel by pixel in photoshop using the pen tool. But it requires a very good eye for design, and sadly this cannot truely be taught, it is something people are born with. The basic rules of design can be taught, but if you are not creative or cannot see colour, then you probably will never be able to. This is why so many people are willing to just cry and wait until someone else does it for them, or not do it at all. I believe that if most people at least tried, they would discover that they did indeed have a good eye for design, with some practice.

@TheAlmaity, I along with Ryan are perhaps the only ones who can indeed say that we have polished projects, completely different styles, but polished never-the-less; Ryan using base assets for SCU; which in a way he _has_ to because otherwise it wouldn't be SCU, it needs to be Starcrafty ... and myself with completely custom UI.

I had a very long talk with Zelda yesterday about his UI, and where it fails and design aspects he has to keep in mind. The reason the Tofu UI works so well is because it is a very dark shade of neutral/metalic grey, it goes with anything. I can use it on a desert arena, on a space arena, on a snow arena, and the constrast between the background (terrain) and the UI will always be there and it will not clash.

Also the way things are set out, the amount of open/active space, concious design decisions based upon the angle average people are more comfortable with leaning their heads and the way their eyes move ... having certain "groups" of elements together. These are things that the average designer never thinks about, and is what seperates a good design from an absolutely amazing designer. Icefrog is a bad designer ... but very good at arranging other people's ideas into a giant jigsaw puzzle that works - but as for creating new ideas, he is as knowledgable as a rock. Eckonovokol is not even a designer, he is almost like Icefrog where they both "borrow" other people's ideas, but Eck doesn't have a good eye like Icefrog does ... Eck just copies everyone's ideas as soon as he sees them - his updates of Sotis basically coniside after "press releases" or "major updates" done to other games in the genre; such as LoL, HoN, BlizzDOTA and Dota II. Look at everything he has added in the last 8 months, he has just copied everyone else.

This is ethically wrong, and sees SotiS firmly cement iteself in place as a junkyard of unrelated ideas that clash - unlike Dota which is a beautifully arranged jigsaw puzzle which you wouldn't even be able to see the joins if you didn't know where to start looking.

Polish is not overrated, but it can and will lead to _huge_ delays in projects ... I know I have said this before, but Tofu's engine for arguement's sake has not changed in like 8 months ... it is just polishing ... and granted I am not working on it everyday, because after a year and a half, I have burnt myself out numerous times and now am really pushing myself hard to finish it because I want to move on to other things. But polishing is one of those things that can take forever and delay a project indenfinately ... I have made my decision that I want custom icons for all abilities and items before we release open beta ... once those are done we will release. Otherwise we could possibly never release because it would never be up to our standards.

Last edited Feb 03, 2012 by DogmaiSEA

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#17 Feb 03, 2012 at 06:44 UTC - 0 likes

"Polish" in itself means to refine something after the basic fundamentals have been set.

Polish is necessary for a good appeal, but is something that should be saved for last. In game projects, most of the polishing seems to be done in the beta phase. Also, you will never be completely satisfied with a project if you are a perfectionist, so you kind of have to set a deadline for yourself and discern what you have time to create and what you don't.

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#18 Feb 03, 2012 at 12:39 UTC - 0 likes

@Sephiex: Go

Funnily enough I am not a perfectionist, I am a more ... "good enough" kind of person ... or "if it ain't broke don't fix it" ... but at the same time I have set high standards because each person most understand that they only really get one chance for a first impression - especially in this day and age of the popularity system. If you are aiming for the "higher market" kind of map, then you cannot release a project half finished, or even open beta as half finished.

Look at SCU; Ryan could have very well released it as a constant open beta going on for six months, but people would play it, get bored or frustrated, and not take another look at it. It would be wise to keep in mind that people are stupid (A person can be smart, but people as a whole, are stupid), and Bnet kids will not differentiate between an open beta and a finished product.

We did set deadlines and shit happened, like big shit, on both sides, mine and Dryeyece's ... life is like that ... that is why we have smarted up and will not announce a release date until it is 100% ready for release and are basically holding on to it to build up hype. Yeah ... we learnt that one the hard way. -_-

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#19 Feb 03, 2012 at 15:02 UTC - 0 likes

Quote from GlornII: Go
Look through the list of maps that lost momentum, were quit halfway through, or will simply never be finished. I see a lot of great artwork in games that have no playability yet. I couldn't imagine spending all that time to make an amazing dialog system, and then crap out on the map for whatever reason.

I agree with this 100%. I have seen so many front page videos where the art and special effects are really impressive. You've got all kinds of crazy heath bars and talent menus, but I know that those things are on the surface just to support a game that is already good. You almost never see those games completed, and I really think that a lot of people just get so invested in the visual effects early in their game and they get burnt out on it before they even have a "game" that is worth playing. It goes to the graveyard as a pretty tech demo and nothing more.

Make your game awesome first. If it's awesome on its own, then it will be even more awesome when you add custom visual effects later on.

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#20 Feb 04, 2012 at 00:41 UTC - 0 likes

I can relate to DogmaiSEA as being a "good enough kind of person". As long as the ui is organised and gives players the information they need, that's good enough for me.

Also agreeing with DogmaiSEA, fancy ui/graphics is more of a first impression thing. I don't know about everyone else, but when I've become familiar with a game and play it competitively/seriously the ui/graphics is one of the last things I ever pay attention to (unless it has crucial info like unit HP). I concentrate alot on my performance in the game.

Especially in a fast paced game, does anyone stop to admire the fancy visuals?

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