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[Blizzcon 2011] Arcade and Editor Improvements

    #41 Nov 05, 2011 at 02:24 UTC - 0 likes

    it's just that a lot of people who play sc2 are kids, and online payments are "a bitch". that's the real problem.

    1) don't be mean to poor people, as they deserve to live more than you.... since they have to scrape along just to live at all

    2) it's cheap, and i honestly only read that last comment out of anything on the entire thread, but it's a bitch to have to run sc2 like itunes... itunes is the reason people pirate music

    3) GO AHEAD, call me an idiot and then ragequit (or rather rage-log-off)

    Last edited Nov 05, 2011 by thepumaman1

    michael: we clear the area before we call for survivors....... mark: so we mop the floor before we spill blood everywhere? ......michael: that's an order

    #42 Nov 05, 2011 at 02:42 UTC - 0 likes
    Quote from Maknyuzz: Go

    @dra6o0n: Go

    Why would you get pissed? If you don't have money that's too bad. You don't have $100 you cant get collector's edition of SC2. Why should Blizzard be sorry about you and reduce the price? No such thing. I/mappers never force you to pay us $1 or $4.99. Never. Stop telling us what to do.

    Funny you mention Karma. You don't have money. Heck yeah Karma's a bitch. Maybe your parents did something bad back then. There goes Karma, now u r homeless and poor, dont even have 99c to buy map...

    I never said I was pissed.

    The thing is, your replies is more childish than ever. While you don't have to listen to me, you obviously reacted in a emotional way, and seems to be the only person too.

    I don't take this thing personally, I'm just telling you guys that things won't always work out the way you think it does, and I've seen a lot of games getting bad rep for attempting to profit before they even finish developing. Cortex Command really really enraged their playerbase. Why? Because the developer was intentionally delaying the updates and development TO MAKE customers buy the game, by misleading them to think that it will get more expensive once it's down... And they only updated twice... LAST YEAR!

    I mean are you gotta sell the map and then provide updates for them? What if the updates for the map gets cut off at some point because you can't physically update or work on it for some reason?

    When you put a game up for sale, you literally is selling out a bit of yourself to others as a service or merchandise and customers has the right to judge how you would look like too...

    The main problem here is your attitude in the whole thing, you are talking like you've made indie games before.

    Also, the problem isn't forcing players or customer to buy it, it's not even about the price line, it's YOUR credibility as a developer/mapper/modder on the line here, not the product.

    And I know developers who has to make a living to live, the developers of Project Zomboid is one of them, but they at least have the incentive to be more professional about it than you.

    EDIT: Angry Birds is a flash game made for the PC first, then incorporated into the Android Platform to sell along with the iPhone platforms and you get the picture. I'm talking about maps, or essentially 'games/mods' that you are creating within a already developed game.

    You are recycling parts of SC2 into the game and selling it, that includes some of the vital RTS systems, even if you do use your own contents. In a sense, you are making 'expansion packs' for SC2 since it still requires SC2 to play it, meaning you gotta own SC2 first and then buy this mod or map for it.

    Angry Birds is a whole indie game so comparing it is quite irrelevant.

    Last edited Nov 05, 2011 by dra6o0n
    #43 Nov 05, 2011 at 02:45 UTC - 0 likes

    i'm guessing my response was irrelevant? i didn't really read this from the start. sorry. good comment dragoon

    #44 Nov 05, 2011 at 02:50 UTC - 0 likes

    Because making a game from scratch and selling it is more reasonable than making a mod for a game and then selling it.

    Do you ever wonder why Blizzard takes ages to consider and balance the whole idea of map marketplace? While it is typically new, all it does is pushes SC2 into the whole DLC era and a lot of consumers (mostly veteran PC gamers) on the PC market really hates that idea.

    On a console it is fine and all... You can't really mod your game yourself you know...

    On a PC though, it becomes a WHOLE different level.

    Last edited Nov 05, 2011 by dra6o0n
    #45 Nov 05, 2011 at 13:53 UTC - 0 likes

    ok... now i'm caught up. i completely agree with dragoon... nobody likes dlc, even if it is the right of the corporation to decide on the matter. it's just a simple issue of having to pay money and tear through downloads to get content that could have come directly with the game.... and as for mods, any professional can make a badass mod without anything getting in the way. clearly, consumers cannot sell these mods (due to copyright), but the corporation would find little effect in doing so themselves.

    #46 Nov 05, 2011 at 14:54 UTC - 0 likes

    @thepumaman1: Go

    That's basically what Blizzard wants to do, get the mapping community to help it net some extra income. This also lets Blizzard sell it's own 'DLCs' which can come in forms of campaigns or some other kind of 'extras' of SC2.

    While the general idea 'doesn't seem bad', the results is more likely not as good as you would think. When incorporating new systems, the publisher has to constantly maintain control over it, especially if players can use and put stuff on it.

    Last edited Nov 05, 2011 by dra6o0n
    #47 Nov 05, 2011 at 19:04 UTC - 0 likes

    Just a warning to any map dev who wants to sell his map, DONT base it on anything, when your giving it away its Fair use, If your selling a map that is based on a series or a book say like DBZ tribute, Fight characters, or Naruto TD, You CANNOT SELL that, it is most likely against the law. so if you plan on making a map to sell, Dont base it on anything, it will be a huge waste of your time and im pretty sure blizzard wont allow you to sell that anyways.

    my maps will always be Free. and Available to the public at the earliest possible date.

    If you need a tester feel free to ask IShadowWolf.258

    You can also catch me on the IRC most times.

    #48 Nov 06, 2011 at 17:55 UTC - 0 likes

    yeah. btw tainted that portrait is amazing! sorry if that's totally off hand, but it's like the best trip ever just to watch it for five seconds.

    #49 Nov 06, 2011 at 20:08 UTC - 0 likes

    @dra6o0n: Go

    Hopefully the community being full of 12 year olds would know what copyright and trademark infringement is.

    And that's not the least of your problem, imagine people calling out 'plagiarism' on each other when their game is 'similar' to each other... It turns into a game of 'Blizzard bans whom's map'.

    Last edited Nov 06, 2011 by dra6o0n
    #50 Nov 06, 2011 at 21:24 UTC - 0 likes
    Quote from thepumaman1: Go

    yeah. btw tainted that portrait is amazing! sorry if that's totally off hand, but it's like the best trip ever just to watch it for five seconds.

    http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x171/11shadowwolf/

    I have one without the shadowwolf

    also a few others that I made.

    Feel free to use any, I made ALOT about 75-90% I dont care what you use.

    #51 Nov 06, 2011 at 21:29 UTC - 0 likes
    Quote from dra6o0n: Go

    @dra6o0n: Go

    Hopefully the community being full of 12 year olds would know what copyright and trademark infringement is.

    And that's not the least of your problem, imagine people calling out 'plagiarism' on each other when their game is 'similar' to each other... It turns into a game of 'Blizzard bans whom's map'.

    Well if their work is good and fully original i would pay for it, I wouldnt pay for re-makes though.

    #52 Nov 06, 2011 at 22:00 UTC - 0 likes

    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x171/11shadowwolf/Drugtrip.gif

    Last edited Nov 06, 2011 by Taintedwisp
    #53 Nov 06, 2011 at 23:50 UTC - 0 likes

    You have to consider that this is probably a major reason they killed off local hosting and maybe LAN. Local hosting would mean that someone could potentially de-protect a pay map and host it for anyone. So they force you to store all the content on their servers where you can only use it with their permission, cutting the possibility of LAN out of the picture and introducing the censorship and region-locked map debacles.

    Did the Blizzcon panel address the region-lock problem at all? I would be very surprised if they did.

    #54 Nov 07, 2011 at 10:03 UTC - 0 likes

    Don't get too worked up over this, Blizzard didn't say every map has to be sold, it's only meant for those extremely good ones with even more potential than the current good ones and actually worth the money (And the agreement of players into being willing to pay for it), so yeah.

    And I for one see this as an improvement, it'll not really affect any way people used to make maps before, considering that it's pretty hard to reach that standard of "awesome-ness" in a map.

    Plus, this is just a way to show appreciation to the player, like, putting a lot of time into one map that helps the game develop definitely deserves some money if it's good enough, even if it's barely a dollar.

    I think Blizzard would get the consent from the maker first (As stated in their Terms), so yeah, it just depends on the creator mostly. Who knows, mapmaking could actually be done better with "donations" to improve it's standard and upgrade it.

    Moreover, it's kind of a better incentive to allow mapmakers to continue developing good maps in Starcraft II (For example, if somebody else gives them a tempting offer), they could think twice about it and who knows, they could just stay in Starcraft II modding to continue updating it for the community for barely a dollar (One-time-payment) which benefits both the community who wishes to play on as well as Blizzard.

    It's a win-win situation if you'd ask me.

    PS: By the time somebody makes an awesome map (And the creator wishes to earn profits from it), there would probably be tons of other free mods roaming about Starcraft II that could be just as fun (With creators who do it without wanting to put a price tag) and children can still continue playing.

    Who knows, the creator and Blizzard could negotiate for a system which sells to players who "earns" a certain amount of points in Battle.Net 2.0 instead of using real money, with the monetary payment a better alternative (Probably because it'll be easier to get) than the "earning".

    They'd probably take into consideration the amount of players playing the map as well, since this could prove a problem, but yeah they've been thinking about it for some time and we'll know when the game's out(:

    And yeah, removing LAN is kind of one of the only alternatives to prevent about 40% of their profits going down the drain (Which could hinder some new stuff they might have planned in mind to improve the editor, which definitely costs money), so erm, I'm sure they're thinking of a better alternative to suit players, just that it takes time.

    So I don't actually mind this too much...

    Last edited Nov 07, 2011 by PFoxy
    #55 Nov 07, 2011 at 15:18 UTC - 0 likes

    @PFoxy: Go

    The main thing I worrie about is, people who pull free maps and then sell them...

    #56 Nov 07, 2011 at 21:45 UTC - 0 likes
    Quote from Taintedwisp: Go

    @PFoxy: Go

    The main thing I worrie about is, people who pull free maps and then sell them...

    I don't see the problem if author has for example supported the map for over year and wants to get something from it. Now I mean real support for map like actual site with a good forum design and is not using some free site service. It is also easier to charge from map what has already been proved from tons of different gamers to be worth it.

    Last edited Nov 07, 2011 by Clord

    #57 Nov 08, 2011 at 00:28 UTC - 0 likes
    Quote from zeldarules28: Go

    http://imgur.com/a/RWHDv#9

    Thanks! Any idea where the artwork came from of the marine surrounded by things? I'll bet it's a wallpaper or something they released but I can't find one.

    #58 Nov 08, 2011 at 01:03 UTC - 0 likes

    Anything with simply 'triggers' and edited 'data' files and a few custom sound files wouldn't suffice for a 'sell-able' map/mod... If you want to sell one, you have to at least have 75% of the content to be custom made, and that includes galaxy codes (meaning real programming) instead of triggers and imported content from 3d model editors and such.

    Meaning if you truly want to sell your game, learn game design to make a 'actual game', not a mod, not a map, but the idea that it 80% feels like a 'actual indie game'.

    And 'real efforts' isn't spending 1000 hours on a map, where you simply adjust, balance, and tweak stuff, no. Real effort is in creating custom sfx, music, custom tilesets, custom models and animations, and custom codes that changes how SC2 plays entirely (like 95% not like a RTS or a 'faked' game type).

    Most of the Third person shooters, side scrollers, and the likes are 'faked' into the RTS game hence it ends up having awfully bad optimization for key latency and the likes.

    Once someone actually put a 'true effort' into making a mod or content that turns SC2 into a actual FPS with HUD, GUI, v_models, and first person animations etc. Then you would have a 'game'.

    ^That, is my expectation, because modders in the mod industry can do it, quite easily sometimes, why are mappers for SC2 slacking off?

    When you force yourself to learn and adapt to the level of a 'standard map editing' software, you essentially dumb down the quality of the possible output of the map since you hold and limit yourself to the limitations of the software itself.

    Last edited Nov 08, 2011 by dra6o0n
    #59 Nov 08, 2011 at 01:29 UTC - 0 likes
    Quote from dra6o0n: Go

    Anything with simply 'triggers' and edited 'data' files and a few custom sound files wouldn't suffice for a 'sell-able' map/mod... If you want to sell one, you have to at least have 75% of the content to be custom made, and that includes galaxy codes (meaning real programming) instead of triggers and imported content from 3d model editors and such.

    Meaning if you truly want to sell your game, learn game design to make a 'actual game', not a mod, not a map, but the idea that it 80% feels like a 'actual indie game'.

    And 'real efforts' isn't spending 1000 hours on a map, where you simply adjust, balance, and tweak stuff, no. Real effort is in creating custom sfx, music, custom tilesets, custom models and animations, and custom codes that changes how SC2 plays entirely (like 95% not like a RTS or a 'faked' game type).

    Most of the Third person shooters, side scrollers, and the likes are 'faked' into the RTS game hence it ends up having awfully bad optimization for key latency and the likes.

    Once someone actually put a 'true effort' into making a mod or content that turns SC2 into a actual FPS with HUD, GUI, v_models, and first person animations etc. Then you would have a 'game'.

    ^That, is my expectation, because modders in the mod industry can do it, quite easily sometimes, why are mappers for SC2 slacking off?

    When you force yourself to learn and adapt to the level of a 'standard map editing' software, you essentially dumb down the quality of the possible output of the map since you hold and limit yourself to the limitations of the software itself.

    Flippin burger for 1 hours gets you $10. Some hooker only shakes her arm jerking of clients for 1hr $100. Senior Level Designer at Blizzard prolly got paid 6 digits for creating 1 campaign level, do they do anything with the game engine? Hell No! All those campaign levels are created using map editor period.

    So why can't we, using the same exact tools against those Senior Level Designer get paid couple hundreds or couple thousands for spending 1000 hours? Thats $1/hour... Boy my PC electricity and heater costs more that that per hour...

    That's your criteria, from someone very cheap. I can understand that.

    Boy, I don't even have maps in mind to sell tbh. But I believe money makes world goes around. We need money as incentives so maps can be great.

    If everyone is as punishing as you then no map will worth anything.

    Smashcraft you think that one is not good enough? Project Vektor? AC-130 not good enough? Corruption RPG doesnt deserve to be sold even for 99c? Project TOFU? No?

    I do not know why you keep bitching about putting price tags on the map. Boy playing Diablo 3 you could make money with the new auction house, and anyone can do that. I don't see why modding/mapmaking which requires some creativity, programming, art creation doesn't deserve any reward...

    Btw, any of you here still thinking of donation. That's so 2000 and late. No such thing as donation anymore these days. Even charities, they no longer ask for donation, they sell products in which the amount generated will be donated. They no longer beg you fro $1. THey sell bag with breast cancer logo for $1.

    #60 Nov 08, 2011 at 11:05 UTC - 0 likes
    Quote:

    Once someone actually put a 'true effort' into making a mod or content that turns SC2 into a actual FPS with HUD, GUI, v_models, and first person animations etc. Then you would have a 'game'.

    ^That, is my expectation, because modders in the mod industry can do it, quite easily sometimes, why are mappers for SC2 slacking off?

    Because there are technical limitation on what a modder can do with SC2. For example, you wont ever be able to get rid of the delay of key presses. Its just the way SC2 works.

    Demanding modders solve problems they have no way of solving, short of hacking SC2 to bits and pieces and reconstructing it, is just unfair.

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