So this is for altered melee as well? Didn't sound that way earlier ;)
Development > Melee Development
Comprehensive List of Melee Tips and Tricks
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Kueken531 Author
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TacoManStan Moderator
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Yes and no. Altered melee is still melee. This is map making community. If you didn't alter it, how would it be map making? (Besides terrain of course)
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Sixen Moderator
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Kueken531 Author
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Quote:
Yes and no. Altered melee is still melee. This is map making community. If you didn't alter it, how would it be map making? (Besides terrain of course)
For me personally, a melee mapping forum would evolve around creating maps with exact melee/ladder configuration. So only things like expansion count/positioning, destructable rocks, watchtowers, chokepoints etc etc. Nothing about any kind of altered data, new races, altered balance. But well, just my opinion.
Quote:
What exactly is "altered" melee?
Exactly my point, why bother making a forum for melee mapping, if something as undefined as altered melee is allowed as well? Just like Taco said in the other post: Are fastest map possible or phantom mode considered material for the melee mapping forums? Is Desert Strike? It uses non-altered melee units, after all. Would a remake of WC3 in SC2 engine be considered melee?
I personally would make this forum about pure melee mapping with only ladder units and settings.
Last edited Jul 22, 2011 by Kueken531 -
Lonami Author
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Normal bases should have 8min 2gas.
Gold bases usually have 6smin 2gas.
Rich gases aren't used, as far as I know.
Some maps modify these parameters depending on the position and strategies around that resource node:
- 8min 1gas
- 6min 1gas
- 6smin 0gas
- 6smin 1gas
The best way to learn, imo, is watching the most popular melee maps. Opposite to custom maps, popular melee maps are usually the best made maps.
By the way, the first post should mention the Map Analyzer, a tool used for making balanced melee maps.
Quote from Sixen: Go
What exactly is "altered" melee?
I would say diplos, epic melee, etc... are altered melee maps. Maps that work with the basic gameplay, but adding different tones to it. Campaign missions enter this category, too.
So yes, this forum is useful, because this isn't about altered melee, is about respecting the original melee of the game. That is, ladder maps. And, since we don't have specific forums for game styles, altered melee maps remain with the rest of the custom maps.
Last edited Jul 22, 2011 by Lonami
I'm a product of your collective imagination and, therefore, I do not assume responsibility of anything I don't want to assume responsibility of.
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s3rius Moderator
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- Watch the hell out for cliffs. If you use some patches of cliff to block an area, then make sure they're the same for everyone, even if they're not intended to be walked on. Tank drops, reaper/colossi still care.
- Make sure the walking distance of one main to the other (one natural to the other) is long enough. If those distances are very short then they have to be easily defensible.
- Make sure that the distance between mineral patches and cliffs is about the same for each equivalent expo. E.g. on Metalopolis some main bases have mineral patches closer to the cliff, so you can stand below the cliff with Stalkers/Marauders and attack probes.
- Remember that Zerg has no early range units, so don't add places where Terra/Toss can bunker down without the Zerg being able to hit back (like on Lost Temple)
- Use a small ramp to your main if the walk distances are short. Especially on 4player maps. No one should be able to gamble for a 6pool and win with it.
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grenegg Regular Shmoe
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There should always be 8 minerals per normal expansion, and 6 high yield. You can mess with the number of geyser. Some Koreans like to have 1 "high yield" geyser instead of two at special bases. Blizzard decided that they don't like messing with the number of mineral patches because they want it to be though of on a "per expansion" bases, not a "per node."Good day sir!
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TacoManStan Moderator
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"Altered Melee" are games like Phantom Mode and Fastest Map. They use melee concepts and gameplay, but alter an aspect of the game. ICJUG is altered melee, etc. If you use all the melee default triggers (unless you made your own melee AI of course), then I would consider it an "altered melee".
What I mean by Data is altering build times, damage, maybe adding in a unit, etc. That is melee. When you change the way you play the game, then it is no longer melee. For example, these concepts would void the game of "melee" status, in my opinion.
- No traditional mining. (Desert Strike income, etc)
- No traditional spawning. (Units must be trained from a building. Once again, Desert Strike)
- Units must cost resrouces. (Marine Arena, where buildings constantly spawn units for free)
- Altered victory conditions. (Point system, like Roundabout War, One Base per team, like Nexus Wars)
- Obviously if the gameplay is altered rediculously, like a TD or Tug of War.
Note that this might not necessarily mean that your map is not melee if it uses ONE of those concepts. For example, maybe you have a game where it is melee, but bases are easily destroyed? The person with the most bases destroyed at the end wins. That is a point system, but I would still consider it a melee map.
Use your judgement, and common sense.. If you think it could be a melee map, post it here. If it isn't, it will just be moved to the proper forum.
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Mozared Moderator
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Obviously the namer 'altered melee' is a really spooky one that can even differ per person, but for the purpose of this forum, perhaps we can define 'altered melee' as "a 1v1 through 6v6-player map that focuses around gathering resources from nodes, where all of a players' units are controllable at any time". I think that kind of defines everything that is 'melee with a twist'. Correct me if I'm wrong, though...
Last edited Jul 22, 2011 by Mozared -
Keyeszx Regular Shmoe
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Would having 1 gas for the main base really throw off the play? I know it probably wouldn't allow for a lot of tech early but would it allow certain races to have an advantage?
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EternalWraith Moderator
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Quote from Keyeszx: Go
Would having 1 gas for the main base really throw off the play? I know it probably wouldn't allow for a lot of tech early but would it allow certain races to have an advantage?
Terran would have an advantage. Mostly..
I guess it wouldn`t really throw off play, so much as limit choices. Narrowing the scope of overall strategic moves.Last edited Jul 22, 2011 by EternalWraith -
Alevice Regular Shmoe
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Quote from Mozared: Go
Obviously the namer 'altered melee' is a really spooky one that can even differ per person, but for the purpose of this forum, perhaps we can define 'altered melee' as "a 1v1 through 6v6-player map that focuses around gathering resources from nodes, where all of a players' units are controllable at any time". I think that kind of defines everything that is 'melee with a twist'. Correct me if I'm wrong, though...
Why not just use the same definition the editor uses?
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TacoManStan Moderator
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The editor's definition of melee is different than what we want here. For example, I believe that as soon as you change a default trigger it is no longer considered melee.
Like stated above, the line between "melee" and "custom" is very, well, controversial? We are using Blizzard's engine, so all games *should* be somewhat similar. Once again, common sense is key. If you play the game like melee, it is melee. If you don't, it is not.
Quote from Keyeszx: Go
Would having 1 gas for the main base really throw off the play? I know it probably wouldn't allow for a lot of tech early but would it allow certain races to have an advantage?
Take this for example. Yes it would through of gameplay, but does it really make the game "custom"? No, not really. In fact not at all. It is still very much SC2.
Now take SmashCraft for example. That game is (I am assuming, based on gameplay and the title) based off of Super Smash Bros. That is not Starcraft, and is considered a custom game. (I know that one is obvious, but you get the idea)
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Sixen Moderator
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Quote from TacoManStan: Go
"Altered Melee" are games like Phantom Mode and Fastest Map. They use melee concepts and gameplay, but alter an aspect of the game. ICJUG is altered melee, etc. If you use all the melee default triggers (unless you made your own melee AI of course), then I would consider it an "altered melee".
What I mean by Data is altering build times, damage, maybe adding in a unit, etc. That is melee. When you change the way you play the game, then it is no longer melee. For example, these concepts would void the game of "melee" status, in my opinion. No traditional mining. (Desert Strike income, etc) No traditional spawning. (Units must be trained from a building. Once again, Desert Strike) Units must cost resrouces. (Marine Arena, where buildings constantly spawn units for free) Altered victory conditions. (Point system, like Roundabout War, One Base per team, like Nexus Wars) Obviously if the gameplay is altered rediculously, like a TD or Tug of War.
Note that this might not necessarily mean that your map is not melee if it uses ONE of those concepts. For example, maybe you have a game where it is melee, but bases are easily destroyed? The person with the most bases destroyed at the end wins. That is a point system, but I would still consider it a melee map.
Use your judgement, and common sense.. If you think it could be a melee map, post it here. If it isn't, it will just be moved to the proper forum.
Oh well, that's not melee then, it's a custom map. No judgement needs to be made. The Editor tells you if a map is custom or melee. For the most part, if you're editing data, triggers, or anything other than terrain, your map is not a melee map. The Editor will tell you that your map is a Custom map.
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grenegg Regular Shmoe
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For starcraft 2 melee, sixen's definition is correct. Modifying it, would make it modified melee, its that simple. Taco says when you change the way you play the game it is no longer melee, the same applies to when you change anything but terrain. The word "Melee" should be used in the sense of strictly competitive starcraft 2 play- not "rodrigos obs mod melee" or "greneggs 1v1 party melee."
Quote from TacoManStan: Go
Altered melee is still melee. This is map making community. If you didn't alter it, how would it be map making? (Besides terrain of course)
So, Taco sats this thread is for melee, and modifications of melee that don't change gameplay. Sure, whatever.
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Sixen Moderator
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Well, I mean, if Rodrigo (iCJug) and Dogmai (Phantom or w/e) want to join in on Melee discussion, they're free to, it's an open forum. The point of this development forum is to help mappers with their Melee projects. As of current, the Melee mapping community is in shambles, I want to attempt to bring them out of the rocks they're hiding under and join us over here, where the grass is greener.
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Mozared Moderator
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Quote from Sixen: Go
Oh well, that's not melee then, it's a custom map. No judgement needs to be made. The Editor tells you if a map is custom or melee. For the most part, if you're editing data, triggers, or anything other than terrain, your map is not a melee map. The Editor will tell you that your map is a Custom map.
The problem here is that often it isn't even, though. I know for a fact that there are melee maps currently used in major tournaments that are not classified as melee maps by the editor. I can't quite recall the exact example I'm talking about, but some people add one or two triggers purely to create visuals, such as hiding and showing rain and thunder at random intervals.
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Sixen Moderator
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Quote from Mozared: Go
The problem here is that often it isn't even, though. I know for a fact that there are melee maps currently used in major tournaments that are not classified as melee maps by the editor. I can't quite recall the exact example I'm talking about, but some people add one or two triggers purely to create visuals, such as hiding and showing rain and thunder at random intervals.
Well, whatever. Use common sense, if the map is used in a major tournament, of course it's considered melee.
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Keyeszx Regular Shmoe
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I thought this thread was for tips and tricks on melee map builds. So I was wondering if the single gas would throw off melee play too much to be used in a tournament.
TacoManStan ModeratorThe List
I would like to start a comprehensive list of melee development tips and tricks that the community can add to and advance.
Terrain
Terrain refers to the tactical positioning of your resources/Xel' Naga Towers, cliff size and placement, base size, expansion distance from main and size, etc. You know, terrain stuff. As we don't have anything yet, I will put some examples below to fill in.
Notes
Custom Units/Features
I decided to include this section here as well. This refers to everything that you might want to add. For example, maybe you want to add an upgrade that allows you to give marines advanced training, turning them into war pigs. This is an important time to remember that war pigs are balanced for the campaign, but are not necessarily balanced for melee. This goes for any other campaign unit, and even more so for any custom unit that you decided to make. Below are some guidelines you should follow when making custom units/features.
What You Should Do
If you discover something that you think is note worthy, or something that hasn't been listed before that could help out future melee developers, post below! We want to make this list as full as possible! If I like your contribution, I will most likely copy and paste it into the main thread, so make your posts count! Everything above should be COMMUNITY DRIVEN. If you find something above that you disagree with, please, voice your opinion there as well. We want this to be informative, and for that to be the case, it needs to be accurate!